Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 409: Plan of Dissent Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Gry Sarth, Nov 6, 2011.

  1. Darth_Gamek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2009
    star 6
    +1
  2. quiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 2
    I have enjoyed this thread, personally I liked The General, I think to truly understand why it was necessary for the clones to completely disobey an order you needed to see just how ineffective Krell was in both understanding how the enemy was fighting and how to take advantage of the clones abilities in a fight.

    It will be interesting to see how they handle the 4th part, I must say I also am totally surprised by how they portrayed Krell, I was expecting to see some friction and less humanity towards the clones then we see from Anikan, Ashoka and even Obi, But I wasn't expected to see him not involved in any fighting and to be such a poor battlefield technician. From what I always thought one of the important abilities of the Jedi is to be able to adapt sense the "right move" and do things in the field of battle that no one else can. In these episodes Krell's role as shown could be played by any non-jedi person.
  3. Tordelback Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 2
    Indeed. Look no further than the Death Star for an example of this principle. It has as much firepower as "half the starfleet", which is presumably a lot but still only half of what is potentially available to the Empire. Rather it is its ability to focus it on one spot, and thus overwhelm any form of planetary shield, that distinguishes it as the 'ultimate power in the universe'. A 100 megaton airburst might lay waste to a vast area, but leave a well-shielded craft or base unharmed , while that same explosive force focussed in one direction at one small target could overwhelm any likely shield. Or something.

    On the subject of the Death Star, I enjoyed Rezpen's thoughts on the origin of Geonosian design flaws - very clever stuff (except I'm not sure the Geonosians had any hand in designing the Lucrehulk core ships - but they should have!).
  4. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

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    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    yeah and SW is not well known about scientific accuracy anyway[face_whistling]
  5. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    The thing is, with the Death Stars, you have a huge laser weapon- and being a laser, it's going to naturally be more focused than an explosive, which tends to expand by its very nature.

    Maybe your idea is right, but how one could condense an explosion twice as powerful as the Tsar Bomba and have it be as puny as the explosions of the missiles we saw onscreen eludes me. Those explosions were barely taller than the treetops.

    I don't know, I guess I'm just not used to thinking of explosions on that magnitude to be 'focused'... or, well, explosions at all, really. I'm more used to thinking of them as being, well, explosively-expanding fireballs. What could condense a fireball that powerful?
  6. EHT New Films Manager

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    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    I thought this episode, like the two before it, was great. A lot rides on the next episode; if it delivers, this Umbara arc will have been one of the best sets of TCW episodes ever (IMO, and based on what I have seen).

    I liked the TPM references; first, in what Fives said about what Anakin did when he was a kid, and second when they actually did fly inside of the supply ship. Blowing it up in the way they ended up having to do it was different though, and I liked Hardcase's sacrifice. It was similar to Hevy, but more profound (more on that in a minute). The space battle leading up to the supply ship was very well done, and it really felt like the opening battle of ROTS. The ANH reference was not as good, and it felt a little forced... but I was relieved when he didn't actually say "we're all fine here... how are you?"

    On Hardcase's death, and indeed the decision that he, Fives, and Jesse all made... pretty profound. They disagreed with following Krell's orders because they felt it was a suicide march for themselves and many of their brothers, but they didn't mind taking that very risky mission of their own (and actually dying in Hardcase's case) in order to try to accomplish the same goal and not have to have so many clones probably get killed. That Krell barely appreciates that shows how little he values clones (in the same way he calls them "clone" or uses their numbers; never their nicknames), and how much he thinks that any successful operation that went against his directive will undermine all of his authority (and indeed his respect in the eyes of the Jedi Council, I think).

    It's interesting that some have complained that the Krell character has been shortchanged by not changing over the course of the arc, but I think it's by design that he stays stubborn and nearly "evil", while at the same time apparently acting within an acceptable scope according to the Jedi. I don't think he's a dark Jedi, separatist agent, or anything else of that sort; I think he is more to be seen as the personification of many of the failings or blindless of the Jedi Order that many see illustrated in the PT. Further to this, it's interesting that the clones point out that he is not like the other Jedi (at least the ones they know, like Anakin and Obi-Wan). For their sake, I hope they are right, because how the other Jedi react to the ordered execution of Fives and Jesse will mean a lot. For example, I can see a foreboding rift growing if Anakin sides with the clones of the 501st while the other Jedi choose to stay out of it and allow Krell to proceed as he chooses. From the preview for the next episode, I was just as shocked as Rex and the two clone troopers in the room when Krell said what he did.
  7. JediMasterKendo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2000
    star 3
    SPOILERs alert in case


    Why do I have a feeling with Part 4 of the Umbaran storyline that Anakin will come and save Rex and the other 501st from Krell. Anakin will arrive and just let out a loud angry shout at Krell to stand down.

    Plus Anakin probably had one of those future visions of seeing the clones get execused
  8. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Jun 7, 2011
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    Wow, just went back and read through some posts again and spotted this one. Great observation Zandalor. Fives sure seems to want to stand out, perhaps even intentionally heroicly.
  9. EHT New Films Manager

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    I can see this as a possibility. It kind of ties in with what I said above... "I can see a foreboding rift growing if Anakin sides with the clones of the 501st while the other Jedi choose to stay out of it and allow Krell to proceed as he chooses."
  10. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah -- that's definitely a great point, Zandalor. I can't speak for everyone else, but when they killed Echo I remember thinking, "Why did they kill all the Dominoes with actual personalities? Nobody cares about Fives! He's the boring one!"

    I'm starting to appreciate him now. Although granted, those striped boots really make him stand out. :p
  11. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    star 6
    Yeah Echo and Hevy had all the personality while Fives just yelled his nickname and sounded pissed off all the time. I've stopped calling him Cut 2.0 beta because Fives is on the opposite end of the clone individuality spectrum IMO. wish they'd have left the deleted scene from ARC Troopers that is on the blu-ray in since it focused more on Fives than Echo, on Fives' desire to be promoted and would of helped him along. Perhaps Fives' wanted to be an ARC Trooper just to stand out and look more awesome. Mission accomplished their Fives ol' buddy. Its catapulted him to the top of my favorite characters list. I still feel sorry for the poor Umbaran that decided he was going to try and jump down onto Fives' back.
  12. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Fives the wannabe ARC trooper. ;)
  13. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Don't player hate me GG, Fives FTW! Ya can't derail this character for me. You may not like him and infact everyone on this forum can hate him for all I care but that won't take away the pure spectacle and joy Fives brought to me in this arc. He's the kind of hero I like to get behind and root for and get off my butt to yell at like a crazy person. That's so much fun and its been a while with TCW as much as I like the show. Rex is fun to root for and all but he's probably going to be alright until the show is clone to ending. I think I'm going to like Fives even more next episode since it seems he's a genuine underdog in it.
  14. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    If Fives were real, he's the kind of person I'd leave inside a burning house to save a pig.
  15. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Yeah, think about it. The only reason that Fives is called Fives is because nothing stood out about him apart from his numerical designation. Everyone around him has names like Droidbait or Echo, which they received for their distinguishing characteristics. What does Fives have apart from his number?

    Moving along, Fives and Echo become good friends over their time together, eventually being selected for Alpha-17's training regimen, becoming honorary Arc Troopers. Then, in a flash, Echo is killed, leaving Fives alone, and with no time to mourn. I sure as hell would become resentful of orders that got friends killed and I wasn't given time to grieve. So Fives is left alone, with only Rex being around of his old friends.

    And then some jerkass Jedi shows up, not only betraying Fives' trust of the Jedi, but also opening old wounds; Echo's meaningless death replaying in front of Fives as clones are killed in a poorly planned assault, or how he is being treated like a number again. That's something that I'm sure would piss him off since he's been trying to break out from that stereotype for a while, only to have it be beaten into him again.
  16. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    star 6
    I'm sure Fives could get himself out of the burning house. Probably before you and the pig got out. =P

    Seriously thats beautiful man. +1 rep.
  17. GGrievous Force Ghost

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    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    The fire would be more brutal than Fives.
  18. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Fives would get out. Actually I could watch an episode of TCW all about Fives trying to get out of a burning building. That could be more exciting than certain episodes of old. =P
  19. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    If the building gets to crush Fives, I'll be tuning in. :p
  20. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    I don't know about getting out. But he'd certainly go out. In a blaze of glory, while fretting about the high casualty rates incurred by people trying to fight fires and escape from burning buildings.
  21. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Kinda reminds me of this next episode coming actually except Krell is the fire or maybe just a smoke bomb.
  22. Yodaminch Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 6
    Once more, "It's all Obi-Wan's fault" applies here. Obi-Wan gives the mission, puts the pressure on Krell do get it done fast. And Krell starts lining up Clones to throw at it because he feels there isn't enough time for anything else. Obi-Wan has so much blood on his hands. :p
  23. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    ^That's still true. I'd be interested to see Krell toss that excuse out that its Obi-wan's fault. I don't think that would fly with Rex, Obi-wan is Rex's buddy too, he's likely going to be standing right beside General Kenobi at the end of this arc.
  24. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    ^
    Nah, Rex is okay with Obi-Wan, but he's buddies with Anakin and Ahsoka. He respects General Kenobi, but I don't see him having the same degree of personal loyalty.

    Reminds me of something I read in a book once: they'd enthusiastically follow the one brother (the more personable, more open brother) to their deaths while the other brother (more reserved - sound familiar?) would probably be the one who would actually save most of them (I'll have to look up the actual line when I get home from work).

    I can see the 501st largely surging behind Anakin in a "c'mon, boys, let's do this" blaze of glory while following Obi-Wan a bit more reluctantly in the same circumstances.

    I'd like to see if they'd actually have Krell or a clone "try to shift the blame" to Obi-Wan as mentioned. That would be an interesting dynamic, and how would that affect Anakin and Obi-Wan?
  25. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Nah, I can't see Rex going along with it if Krell or other clones passed the blame to Obi-wan. He demonstrated loyalty to Obi-wan way back in the movie and he has been preaching about that stuff all during this arc. I think Rex knows Obi-wan better than that. He knew Obi-wan would of agreed with him about not marching into the missiles which is why he wanted to try and contact him again. He's probably going to be wishing like hell Obi-wan shows up now. He has no reason to believe Anakin will. Oh man the outcry if Ahsoka were to show up and save the day.