Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 409: Plan of Dissent Discussion Thread

Whatever.

Sometimes you have to follow in order to lead.

 

I really don't think these sorts of "life lesson" principles are suitable to be conveyed in a military setting.

Stuff like how you shouldn't give in to peer pressure and do what others tell you if you don't think it's a good idea, doesn't really fit in with the current situation where the Republic needs loyal and focused troops to overcome the Separatist threat. Frankly, it doesn't fit with any military setting. The military is built on compliance. If you can't get your own troops to follow your orders, then you have no credibility as a leader, and your troops are a waste of space.

Given how Krell is written, it seems like that was clearly how they wanted to make this work, but the fact that they went completely overboard in demonising him and denying him any shred of credibility, I think only further delegitimises the arc in my eyes.

 

Yeah, that has to be the worst fortune cookie ever. It's extremely simplistic.

Last week's fortune cookie was really bad too. 'The path of ignorance is guided by fear.', yeah right. Isn't it the other way round?

 

It's a broad generalization that doesn't apply to every situation, or even most situations. It really just applies to the clones dilemma of deciding whether or not to follow Krell's orders.

No one is born wise, wisdom is something you have to learn. You either learn through leading a life full of mistakes, or by following the advice of someone wiser than you.

There's nothing wrong with following someone you think knows better than you. Of course, that's not the case with the clones.

What's really sad is that they basically just used this one for Nomad Droids.

""Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?"

 

"Time spent on the earth [galaxy] doesn't mean you grow in mind."

 

Hmm? The clones have spent a great deal of time following those who are wiser than they. This is the first time we've ever seen clones acting this way towards a superior, and I still say that had Krell been given command of the 212th, Cody would not have tolerated any of the behavior we see among these few veterans of the 501st.

Not that I'd defend the TCW fortune cookies. I think they're randomized. "The Deserter" had a semi-interesting one, but I've yet to see what it had to do with the episode ("It is the quest for honor makes one honorable."). I mean, sure. And exactly where was "honor" being discussed? All I heard/saw was about duty, choice, meaning and cheesy villain escapes.

 

Completely agree about the fortune cookies. I Think they come from Google or quotes from other media and maybe at most get the thesaurus taken to them. The one for "The Deserter" has never made any sense to me even though I've seen that episode about a thousand times now. The best I can come up with is some sort of honor in keeping the secret and not turning Cut in. I think to date my favorite fortune cookie is the one for "Innocence of Ryloth" -- "The costs of war can never truly be accounted for" -- or something like that. Still this one interests me because I'm not sure who truly is the wiser here. I think its obvious... but.

 

So does that mean that the Wise man is the fool?

After all the Fool who follows the fool is ignorant of the fact that he is following a fool, thinking him to be wise.

It's just an Obi Wan quote made stupid.

 

I think you misunderstood. That's not the case with the clones this time, as they certainly don't believe Krell is wiser than they are.

I'm just saying "The ignorant man follows, the wise man leads" is a broad generalization that simply isn't true all the time, it just happens to be true in this arc. It's not a maxim like they make it out to be.

Sometimes the wise man follows, and sometimes the ignorant man leads.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, what CT said.

 

Ah, my bad. What CT said.

 

I continue to be worried that they are going to show the disobedient clones as the heroes, whilst the cantankerous Jedi General is seen as the villain here.

There is always room for experienced officers to allow for flexibility in carrying out orders as situations develop on the battlefield, but outright disobedience is cause, at the very least, for a dishonourable discharge. But how do you discharge a clone?

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!" he said.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Some one had blunder'd.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.


EDIT: And with the fortune cookie, it should be: if you're a clone, shut the hell up and follow orders. This isn't some internet medical advice you can follow or ignore as you see fit, there is a chain of command for a reason.

 

Hmm? Maybe we're watching a different show. I think "disobedient (independent) clones = good guys" has been the theme of the entire arc so far.

This is Star Wars, not the Marine Corp. Ultimately, these clones are being led by a Sith lord (a bad guy). By that measure, clones that learn to think for themselves are more likely to be better men, even if that makes them bad soldiers. Order 66 aside, at some point, men like Rex and Fives and Jesse are going to be ordered to do kriffing awful stuff, as Stormtroopers. The good soldiers - Dogma, Appo - will obey without a question. The good men - Rex, Fives - will blink and say, "What the..?"

 

The whole point is that they are refusing to follow orders, if you don't understand why this is a bad thing right now, so be it, but that's exactly what I am afraid of.

Krell drawing his saber might have been an overreaction but again, you could be shot on the spot for refusing to execute an order in wartime. Is Krell acting like a Sith in that instance, or as a General dealing with insubordinate troops?

Equating this with Order 66 is a little ridiculous to me.

 

The only person whose been executed in the U.S. since the Civil War for insubordinates or cowardess is Private Eddie Slovik. In todays U.S. military it is illegal for someone to be straight up executed for insubordination in the U.S. armed forces although there is a clause that a person can be shot if he/she represents a danger to alot of people. I know its been done in History and there are accounts of it up to the Korean war... just wanted to say. This is another case where I'm not sure the extraordinary circumstances in the SW/ TCW universe can apply to the real world. An earth general is not going to be bound by a code quite like the Jedi's which is part of the conflict with Krell's character. Supposedly being a Jedi is the only thing that makes Krell more than a standard monster of the day. Also OOU its most likely the writer did his entire research on insubordination in the military by doing a google search and reading 'yahoo answers' posts.

 

I feel that the meaning behind the motto is that you should take responsibility for yourself. So if you are following for what you believe are the right reasons then that is fine because it is not ignorant - it is bad to follow blindly without thinking. If you are following in the right way then you are still 'leading', even if it just your own self, and are therefore more wise than you otherwise would be. So I think that the clones are displaying wisdom because although they are following Krell, they are questioning it and do not really want to. They want to lead themselves a different way, or get their leader to see a better way of leading the group.

 

I'm worried that they're going the simplistic route. To justify showing disobedience as a good thing, they're going to have to make Krell real bad. Knowing TCW, we may end up with a stupid traitor villain after all, and a huge storytelling opportunity will be wasted.

It's the same thing with Anakin and Ahsoka going behind the council's back all the time. Okay, I get it, I see how this can be a good thing at times. I just think it's about time we got to see how and why disobedience and insubordination can also be bad at times.

It's like they never show two sides of things, there's never any ambiguity, it's always simplistic. Just like this fortune cookie, for example. I completely agree with CT, it's an absurd generalization that doesn't apply in every situation. Yes, I understand it's relevant to this particular episode, yet they're presenting it as a piece of eternal wisdom that you should always carry with you.

They need to get away from simplistic, but I'm afraid it's another disadvantage of the format. TCW has always been and probably will always be very black and white. Yes, they have touched upon a little grey area in Heroes on Both Sides, but they rarely follow through on these things. I hope they will.

 

Backtalk and second-guessing don't earn you any medals. They earn you a slap in the face from your CO.

When "displaying wisdom" through thinking creatively and questioning orders turns into disobeying orders because you think you can do it better another way, then you're not a hero, as Michnovetz wants us to think. You're an arrogant punk that doesn't understand the chain of command. Even though Krell is so appallingly written, for the clones to have any credibility they need to respect his authority anyway and follow his orders. Funnily enough, in this case the wise thing to do is to follow because otherwise you're putting your ass on the line.

 

What, you mean they're not putting their ass on the line if they do follow his orders?

(I totally agree with what you just posted, but I just had to comment on this.)

 

Exactly. Fanboy, you + me v. The World.

I mean, if they had some evidence that Krell was simply trying to kill them off, maybe disobedience is justified, and god knows there were enough idiotic/insane orders given in WWI that were conveniently ignored or misinterpreted when the commmand staff was painfully out of date, but simply disagreeing with your General's strategy shouldn't be encouraged here.

It wouldn't happen in a modern RL military, and it would be even less likely to occur in a military made up of clones "bred for obedience".

Like I said earlier, it's quite likely Rex & 5s would have their discussion/complaints, but they would do it in private.


If they got into these guys being the 501st, it might make more sense - if they're the equivalent of the Delta Force or something.

 

This can only go well. Looking forward to it.

Haha nice catch.

I totally agree with what you posted on how black and white it is too.

 

Hey, I want in!

I know hardly anyone's paying attention to my random ramblings, but I'm on this little bandwagon all the way.

 

Many in the 501st appear to have developed a strong personal loyalty to Anakin Skywalker. Since Krell doesn't measure up to Anakin, they naturally resent his leadership and, with a little prompting, they try to do things the way Anakin would have done them.

The prompting seems to be coming from Fives. In earlier canon, ARC Troopers are part of the Special Operations Brigade, autonomous within the Grand Army and giving its personnel a lot of autonomy. In TCW, Fives is just attached to the 501st as a special forces expert, commanding troops on the ground as well, presumably due to his rank. He's there at the request of either Anakin or Rex. I doubt Krell banks on having to deal with an independent-minded ARC when he arrives on Umbara.

Fives is the one stirring things up. ARC training seems to have broken his loyalty programming, which is probably what was intended. He now holds Rex's relative conformity in disdain. It makes sense that some of the legionaries, with their personal loyalty to Anakin and their quick disillusionment with Krell, see the ARC as being more worthy of respect than the behind-the-lines general.

Remember, these clones have been changed by serving under Anakin, so it's not implausible that the 501st legionaries are considered incredibly unorthodox as far as clones go.

But...

In the end, it doesn't matter how independent-minded these clones become. They end up following the ex-Jedi to whom they're personally loyal into the Jedi Temple. It works out that there's no need for an element of surprise and thus no need for them to be the utterly stoic clones who surround the Jedi in the field and not give a single hint of betrayal (eg. Obi-Wan's 212th, Aayla's 327th). They just storm in and kill the weakest of the Jedi, destroying and seizing their artifacts in the process and finally desecrating their sanctuary. Some of them (Hardcase? A world-weary Tup?) can be bloodthirsty, pathological Jedi-haters who exude menace to terrified younglings, but it doesn't matter because the Jedi are faced with absolutely overwhelming force and no amount of immediate warning will do them any good.

I personally think the new story is that Palpatine sends the 501st to follow Anakin/Vader into the Temple because of the legionaries' personal loyalty to Anakin himself. They'd be terrible at executing Order 66 on a Jedi they're serving in the field, but the Umbara arc shows their brutality, ingenuity and effectiveness in pitched battle. Much like Anakin, they're ideal Jedi-killers.

 

By all means, join the party.

 

Excellent points. While I'm a proponent of clones disobeying Order 66, the developments in this arc do not factor into that, other than the most indirect ways.

Though if we see Krell order a mass killing of Umbarans - civilians, especially - and some clones object/refuse, that might change things.

But regardless, I strongly believe TCW will showcase some clones disobeying Order 66. I have a few reasons, mostly it's intuition, and observing the general pattern of how "dark" TCW dips (and what sorts of 'darkness' they show). I'm very confident that the show will end on a "hopeful" note, as all Star Wars films do, and that factors into my expectations. We shall see.