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Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 409: Plan of Dissent Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by Gry Sarth, Nov 6, 2011.

  1. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Krell ordering the clones to execute civilians would be better than him turning out to be a separatist. Not much though.
     
  2. JM_1977

    JM_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 23, 2011
    I know I'm new here but can i join the group:D
     
  3. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    To justify showing disobedience as a good thing, they're going to have to make Krell real bad. Knowing TCW, we may end up with a stupid traitor villain after all, and a huge storytelling opportunity will be wasted.
    Plus, it would take a lot for any trained soldier to disobey an order...especially a life time soldier like the clones are. They've obeyed suicidal orders plenty of times...to have any clone, even the most independent minded ones, possibly disobey orders, they need pretty much the worst general imaginable.


    As to the discussion about disobeying orders: Well, yeah, that's the way the military works...and for very good reasons. That said, philosophically right and wrong are not dependent on what someone with a fancier hat says.
    Besides, legally....soldiers are obligated to disobey and report illegal orders (to get around the "just following orders" justification). Though you need a lot of witnesses to pull that off.
    Also an officer can get in a lot of trouble for treating soldiers badly. Patton was one of America's best generals in World War 2, and he still almost got fired over slapping a soldier. Slapping! I can't imagine an officer getting away with a field execution.

    And sometimes a bad officer just needs an unfortunate accident to happen.[face_whistling]

     
  4. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    I have long been a proponent of having episodes focusing on what the war does to a Jedi as a military commander.

    We never really know why the Jedi are Generals, other than their incredible abilities with the Force.

    As Mace says "we're peacekeepers". So what qualifies them to lead troops, in terms of strategy and even psychology?

    I'd like it if we actually saw a dark side to Krell; not related to the Sith at all, because you can obviously have dark side without Sith involvement.

    So far he seems, as has been discussed ad nauseum, either incompetent or clueless. ;) I'd like a little more dialogue from Krell about the war and the clones and a little more insight into how he has been twisted, a la Depa Billaba in Shatterpoint:

    "I know you will come for me, Mace. You should never have sent me here. And I should never have come. But what's done can never be undone. I know you think I've gone mad. I haven't. What's happened to me is worse. I've gone sane. And nothing is more dangerous than a Jedi who is finally sane."
    ?Depa Billaba to Mace Windu

     
  5. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    yeah this "wisdom" is kinda dumb -if all people would lead there would be no leaders at all- they are not leaders without their followers- But maybe the point is that "ignorance" with all that negative tone in it- is not a bad thing then I guess.... whatever they just make this up without thinking them enough:oops:
     
  6. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2011
    A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows the public opinion.
    -Chinese Proverb

    I think this fortune cookie is a remixed Chinese proverb. I don't think its meant to say its always bad to follow and the follower is always ignorant to do so. I think it means something more like, knowing when to disobey when your think that's the right thing to do. I feel its all about the dilemma Rex will face with Krell.

     
  7. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Reminds me of Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse Now.
     
  8. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    But Chinese proverb makes sense and this one doesn't- whatever 'fortune cookies' are nothing to me- except those I make to my own episode ideas:p
     
  9. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2011
    It makes perfect sense if google is the maximum amount of effort they are putting into the fortune cookies. They poorly reworded it.
     
  10. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Yeah that is the thing- when reworded like that it loses the sense it has- that chinese proverb is about opinion really and not about military tactics- following is necessary that armies could work- Not all soldiers can lead anyway- officers are not necessarily right but disobeying them is problematic thing because it is against idea of whole organisation. In this case something like this would make more sense: "If ignorant man leads- wise man won't follow"
     
  11. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Good catch. Stover said Shatterpoint is directly inspired by Apocalypse Now (and the literary predecessor, Heart of Darkness).
     
  12. FistoFan93

    FistoFan93 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Depa could be a VERY interesting character for TCW to explore. Difficult without messing with EU though..
     
  13. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    I had no idea she went dark. (Or did she?)
     
  14. fistofan1

    fistofan1 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2009
    I would love for Depa to be revived at some point in the series, or the EU for that matter, and be slowly rehabilitated. I would be interested in seeing if the Jedi could convince her to return to the Order of if she would go rogue.
     
  15. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2003
    I don't want to drag this thread off-topic, but just to add: Stover said in an interview years ago, in response to a question regarding why he didn't kill Depa off at the end of his book, that he had the opportunity but thought he could use Depa and/or Kar Vastor again in the future. He ended up using Vastor in Shadows of Mindor years later, but I always wondered if he still had it in mind to write something more about Depa.


    I'm glad TCW has stayed away from her character. Not like I hate TCW or anything, but she had one of the cooler stories in the EU. Besides, they're basically already using Krell for the Heart-of-Darkness plot.
     
  16. Darth_Zandalor

    Darth_Zandalor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 2009
    She basically goes insane from PTSD and the carnage she witnesses on Haruun Kal, and she slipped into a coma and never recovered. Most likely she was killed during Operation Knightfall.
     
  17. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Ah, I see. :)
     
  18. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Sure, but just to be clear: it's a 'The-clones-aren't-realistic-soldiers-and-shouldn't-be-insubordinate-because-they've-been-engineered-to-be-obedient' bandwagon. :D :p

    EDIT: Arg, double post.

    MESA SORRY! :p
     
  19. Darth_Zandalor

    Darth_Zandalor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Krell has something for Twelve hour time segments.

    "CLONES MARCH FOR TWELVE HOURS!"
    "NOW BE READY TO MOVE IN TWELVE HOURS!"

    One thing I'm worried about is repetition. Umbara definitely looks nice, but so did Dac, and it wore out its welcome very quickly. I hope that the capital shows some more visual diversity and less fog that marked the last two episodes.
     
  20. Darth_Gamek

    Darth_Gamek Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2009
    And Mandalore. [face_tired]
     
  21. Darth_Zandalor

    Darth_Zandalor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Mandalore only got bad after the Season 3 duology. In the original arc, it was actually pretty diverse. We got to see both Sundari and the moon of Concordia. Both very diverse visually. But the stupid season 3 episodes were just cubes everywhere.
     
  22. Darth_Gamek

    Darth_Gamek Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2009
  23. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2011
    I think its talking about Fives; the soldier stirring up things, popularizing the negative opinions of Krell, and apparently leading them to disobeying orders. I think the 5 or 6 members of the 501st who stick closest to Anakin are just a little like this. Fives himself is something else. Its Five the more ignorant clones are going to follow; The smart, independent, aggressive, and apparently charismatic ARC Trooper. Fives isn't afraid to stand up to Rex and he clearly hates Krell. Yet Fives isn't really the wise one. I don't think Rex will have much of a role in this convert operation other than to deal with the gory aftermath and Krell will be way busy building his monster of the day points by telling Rex he sucks at life.
     
  24. AkashKedavra_93

    AkashKedavra_93 Moderator Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2011
    The three things I really want to see in the second half of this quartet:

    1. Ahsoka/Barriss attacking in space
    2. Krell actually using his lightsabers to attack
    3. The Umbaran capital
     
  25. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    But the Jedi are the villians.......:p

    I haven't watched any of this arc, but your take seems overly simplistic to me. A Jedi could certainly be a villian and Clones could certainly make a their own choices.

    If this arc ends with the Clones killing Master Dexter it certainly could foreshadow Order 66, actually give precendent for it, to the Clone army. If the Clones start to develop a mistrust of the Jedi on any level it simply helps Order 66 make more sense in the grand scheme of things.

    Palpatine - "Execute Order 66"
    Cody - "Damn, its Krell all over again. I'll get right on it"