Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 409: Plan of Dissent Discussion Thread

I completely agree that the clones are too contradictorily independent in TCW, but I guess I made my peace with it back when Waxer and Boil met Numa. It might be a contradictory portrayal, but at least it's entertaining.

 

It wouldn't be the first time TCW has dealt with a Jedi clearly falling into darkness sans direct Sith involvement...

 

I haven't been able to confirm this yet, but my theory is that the Contingency orders, like Order 66, aren't something the clones are just "trained" to follow, like we see in the first Domino squad episode. Instead, they are "imprinted" into the clones' subconscious memory (I call it "flash-training" but I'm not clear on what that term entails), so that it's always in the "back of their minds". Other details, such as the rank needed to succesfully call out such an order, can also be imprinted, without the clones having any conscious knowledge of the order.

So when the order is given, every clone immediately "knew" exactly what they were to do. And they knew it was coming down from the highest authority they know. Cody gets it, and immediately turns and orders Kenobi shot. No second thoughts. Same with Bly and Gree. Once the deed is done, and realization sets in, it's too late to do anything about it.

On a slightly different note, this is also a good catalyst for the more brutal, inhumane acts of the Stormtroopers, after Order 66. It's like a coping mechanism - you're being led by a monster, you're being ordered to be a monster, and it's a lot easier if one simply goes with the flow and accepts the grim role. Instead of seeing a frightened girl like Numa, and feeling compassion and pity, a Stormtrooper is more likely to abuse her, or shoot her if she proves an annoyance. Why? Because ever since Order 66, they've been serving a superior with inverted morals, compared to a Jedi. Compassion and mercy are no longer valued by their superiors.

Cruelty and brutality are the ways of the Sith, and so they soon become the ways of the clone trooper. Betrayal is the nature of the Sith, and on Order 66, the clones learned to betray. In my mind, seeing the good side of these men makes Order 66, and the events that followed, all the more tragic.

It's actually like seeing Vader in RoTJ, after watching the prequel. When he's watching Luke being tortured, we see no emotion or empathy in that blank mask (LF's "enhancements" not withstanding). But after the events of the PT, I see Padme, Obi-Wan, the younglings, all in that moment. It adds an entirely new dimension with that scene.

For me, it's the same thing with TCW - now that I know what the clones are like, and now that I can feel for and empathize with them, the moment when they turn on the Jedi in ROTS becomes so much richer, and more tragic. Because I know what they're really like, and how they really related to "their" respective Jedi. We all know about Vader's betrayal. But now we can see how much of a betrayal went between the clones, and the Jedi.

 

yeah same with me- I used to have problem with it back then, but I actually like more of this clones can be personal and independent -thing

You know what would be cool? Episode without Ahsoka that starts with Rex seeing odd nightmares where he kills Ahsoka in some secret brainwashing test where clones are conditioned to order66.... He wouldn't remember really doing it - but then we wouldn't know if those flashbacks were real or not until mystery would unfold.... that would at least make damn interesting preview clip ....

 

I do agree with that. It's not a major issue for me. Still gave both Umbara episodes a 9.

I'm just hoping they won't ruin it with a simplistic approach - Krell being dastardly evil.

 

As I mentioned above, I'd be perfectly happy if they played it along the lines of Nahdar Vebb. A hypothetical justification for Krell could be, 'War is brutal, so we must meet that brutality with brutality' or some such. Not so much 'dastardly evil' as it is 'corrupted by the Hell of war'.

But then, that's just what I want to see. I found the idea they had with Vebb was great, showing the toll of the war, and delving into that idea more would be really interesting.

As opposed to, say, a guy who was already a jerk to begin with.

 

What's done is done. Honestly what is the point in trying to develop Krell now. They had a chance to make a really interesting character and they blew it. Trying to give Krell's character depth now, as a way of legitimising what he is, is completely redundant.

 

I've read that before about contingency orders like 66 being imprinted in the clones like a distant memory that's always been there. I really like that bit of fanon and its one of the reasons why I tend to side with Rex following with order 66 or something similar with Operation Knightfall. I know we disagree on this but I just gotta say I like the idea of Rex following with it and after the switch unflips the otherwise compassionate and independent guy we know and love wakes up and has to deal with the horrible consequences. We'd get to see the weight of that threw his eyes. I have an old wallpaper of a 501st clone sitting in the jedi council room hanging his head like he's crying after the raid on the Jedi Temple. Sick as it is I like to bleach him blond and repaint his helmet to Rex's in my head when I look at it.

[image=http://www.ximages.net/images/69351192869447280026.jpg]

 

Yeah, I mean I gave The General a tough 8/10 because of the writing problems but it was probably the single most exciting TCW episode we've ever seen.

When was the last time we had a really well-written episode?

 

The novel: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader by James Luceno paints a slightly different view of Order 66 as something that some clone squads execute without question, but then other clones question the validity of the order and actually request higher authorization. Even then, one particular clone squad actively disobeys the order believing the order to be a mistake.

 

Microseries?

 

And on that humorous note, I think we really should try to get back on topic here, folks. The episode hasn't even aired yet and yet we've been rambling about everything and nothing for several pages now. Unless it's directly about the upcoming episode, most of what's being discussed here should really be on the General thread, or the general thread (I know, it's confusing).

 

I actually feel you there, and I'd definitely like to see that sentiment brought out in TCW's portrayal of Order 66 (and I think we will). Given Rex's current standing in the show, I don't think TCW would leave him on that note - again, the cruel irony is that the Empire, in many respects, is the "evil I can't well imagine," that Rex wants to prevent.

So from a storywriter's perspective, Rex going through with Order 66 leaves him, at the end of the show, as a failure, by his own measure. And I can't see TCW leaving their top clone character as a self-proclaimed "failure." I really think he's meant for something bigger.

Great shot, by the way.

EDIT: Okay, okay, I'll drop this topic now...

 

What would REALLY be interesting is Anakin's take on that viewpoint, since he agrees with Tarkin that the Jedi do not take being soldiers as far as they should.

THAT could be a real interesting POV to see played out.

 

Agreed, but I'm afraid that, as usual, they're just not following up on these things.

 

NEVER!!!!!

 

Saying the micro-series was well-written is like saying Mass Effect 2 was a good sequel.

 

No.

 

Trespass

LAPR

really, c'mon, there's been a LOT of well written stories.

 

You picked an incredibly subjective example there. If you said Force Unleashed II, then there'd be no debate whatsoever.

All three of you though, lighten up a bit and learn to recognise a joke when it comes your way. I don't have to occasionally delve into whimsy and joke around like I don't abhor society. I can be as bitter and as miserable as you want me to be.

To get sort of back on topic, it would be nice if, before condemning General Krell to the loony bin, they show him in action fighting at least once this episode. I'm getting tired of harping on about his poor character and I need something else to latch onto and tear down.

 

I couldn't resist as I procrastinated an essay...

[image=http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/314/5/d/rex_in_council_room_photo_edit_by_rexter_fangirl-d4frwxv.jpg]

 

Enough, guys. Topic, please.

 

Okay. Does anyone think we'll get some air or space combat this episode? I'm still waiting on the Larties to pull off some Republic Commando strafing runs and extractions.

 

^I think this is partially the space combat episode- in first previews we saw two umbaran fighters coming from exploding capital ship so it's probably Fives and Hardcase there....

 

And Jesse as well, there is an old screen cap of Jesse piloting one of these fighters through I'm guessing the upper atnosphere and interestingly the bodies of a few clones can be seen falling in the background. I bet this episode is where that screen cap came from.

[image=http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/276609_235247156507370_3123781_n.jpg]

Hmm... large version of this is elusive.