Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 410: Carnage of Krell Discussion Thread

Yes, that's what I was asking, thanks. I think that's a plausible alternative, though perhaps not quite as bad-ass. Still, what you propose could have worked well enough if they wanted to go the moralistic-debate route for the finale of this arc. I personally don't think that would have been anywhere near as climactic or packed the same punch as what we got, but that's just me.

 

I just watched the Clone Wars Blu-ray featurette for "The Hidden Enemy" (Season 1). I hadn't watched this in a while, and I took note of something Filoni mentioned that I had not keyed in on as much when I watched previously. It has an important connection to the "Umbara" arc:

I believe that the fallout from the Krell incident relates to how the Jedi will influence the clones in the future, perhaps due to a trust issue with the Clones. If Krell turned on the Republic and the Clones, who's to say there won't be more Jedi traitors? Of course, Palpatine could be working to change the way the Jedi interact with the clones, using Krell as an excuse to draw apart the tight-knit Jedi/Clone partnerships through political machinations and/or seeds of distrust. This could be also be setting up a future episode which shows Palpatine introducing "Order 66" to his Clone Commanders as a new military protocol.

Of course it will be interesting to see how they choose who doesn't go along with the order and what the consequences would be. Is Appo the Revenge of the Sith style clone he is referring to and Rex the early-war style clone? How about Dogma and Tup?

 

Wow... I hadn't heard that one. If Dave's asking the question (referring to whether all clones execute Order 66), then I think it's safe to say somebody is not going to follow through it.

I really don't think they'd do that - besides being a boring scene, it completely gets rid of the suspense of that moment. We'd find out right away which clones were likely to obey or disobey the order, based on their reactions to learning it.

I think there's more to it than that. Rex is an 'old style' clone, and Appo is a 'ROTS' style clone, and there are definite differences. Appo is cold and complacent, neither opposing nor supporting Krell when it mattered. So are the vast majority of the troopers. Dogma and Tup are somewhere in the middle.

But Commander Cody is "old style". So is Bly, and Gree. Obviously it's not the case that all "old clones" are likely to disobey Order 66. But an "old style" clone with a unique personality, and a highly developed sense of honor and identity? A man who flat out states that he has to make his own decisions when his orders conflict with what he believes is the right thing to do? That's the kind of clone - or man, rather - who could defy Order 66.

 

I agree, I think Rex is our safest bet to be the one who decides not to pull the trigger. Interestingly enough he wouldn't pull the trigger with Krell either... This is at least a nod to the chance that the series could continue into the timeline of ROTS.

The other thing that got me thinking was that Palpatine is weeding out the old-style clones. I got to thinking of old jobs I had at bad companies where all the brightest people eventually leave if they're smart enough, or get fired because they do something against the company's very narrow-minded goals (Rex?). What's left are all the narrow-minded order followers (Appo) who just do the very simple tasks that the company wishes of them, and they stay there as slaves to the man!

It will be interesting to see if we see a falling out between Rex and Cody, something that defines them by certain choices they make, either for or against the orders of the higher-ups. In previous seasons they were friends and worked well together... but so did Anakin and Obi-wan, and we know what happened there. Gree on the other hand, I believe he already showed his hand in "Cloak of Darkness" when he proclaimed to Argyus his duty to follow the code and all of its orders, and the honor in doing so.

 

That is interesting. I can't help but think they're foreshadowing something, because really I don't see why Rex wasn't able to pull the trigger. Loyalty to the Jedi? Krell denies being a Jedi. Unarmed opponent? Rex killed the Umbaran tank driver. But he won't kill a traitorous Jedi? Hmm....

Heh. I'm working a job where that literally is just the case. Our "Captain Rex" has already jumped ship, but fortunately he's a good man - he's been hiring back the old team at his new place. This company is folding as a result, but we don't care!

Argyus is really interesting, since arguably he made a similar argument to Rex, when talking to Ahsoka. Yet, he was a bad guy, right?

I think it comes down to character - men like Argyus and Slick made some good points, but as men they were fundamentally flawed - both of them choose "the right thing to do" based on personal gain, harming/killing their own comrades in the process. Whereas men like Fives and Rex (and the Jedi in general) have a sense of honor about them. They will choose to do what they "feel" is right, based upon the greater good that they are supposed to fight for. Rex won't disobey Order 66 because he feels that he'd really rather be a farmer on Saleucami. He will disobey Order 66 if he believes that it's a flawed/traitorous order.

 

I think I'll watch that video myself when I get my blu-rays back. That's interneting to read.I wonder if that goal is still within sight of the writing team. I can see where order 66 could be created do to the fallout.

...and heh... I'm pretty much the Jesse of my workplace and I just survived execution last week.

 

Guys, I don't want to post the link, but you can find the video for the featurette online on the most famous video posting website... I'm guessing since its still up since being uploaded in 12/09, that LFL doesn't mind that people are viewing.

Seerow - sorry to hear about the firing line. It seems just like the clones, they are motivating us with fear given the state of the economy.

Sacharias - I was fortunate to get out of a hellhole after being there for ten years this past April by way of a referral from a friend. So there are Capt. Rex's out there that you just need to keep as contacts to get out of the bad company's...

 

That was quite a while ago, but I'm hopeful that they had at least a rough game plan. It wouldn't have taken much to say, "Okay, so lets have our main clone character be this real cool Captain who disobeys Order 66." Episodes like "Hidden Enemy", "The Deserter", and the Umbara arc all build towards that endgame. All things considered, it's a straightforward and logical plot element for the story as a whole. From a certain point of view, it's "low-hanging fruit" for a storywriter.

I remember you mentioning that. Happy to hear things worked out!

 

I never really watched any of the commentaries. I looked at the pictures and the deleted scenes and stuff. I generally don't care about commentaries until someone tells me something important is in there I'm missing out on lol. Unfortunately all three of my TCW blu-ray collection are with the guy I think I scared when I lost it over Waxer dying.

I dunno if I believe the production and writing team brainstormed some sort of storyline arc and an end game from the beginning. I rarely see it in an obvious manner in the show. Its mostly by way of fanon I've connected "The Hidden Enemy", "The Deserter", and the "Umbaran arc" among other episodes because although vague signs are there, nothing direct is ever mentioned. I only remember "Brain Invaders" directly referencing a past episode. The reason I got angry with "The General" is because I thought someone had forgotten "The Deserter" existed. Hopefully there is an end game and when we get close things will start tying up more directly. This is probably going a bit off topic.

And thanks. =)

 

Don't kid yourself there is totally an end game, we're talking about George F-ing Lucas here! I know what you mean by not seeing that in all the random episodes, but that happens with all serialized tv shows... there are some random one-off shows. Watching the Umbara arc, especially the final episode really makes me believe that they are starting to tie all the threads together. Just think back to Season 1 where Fives was some random clone in an episode with a couple lines, and Rex was just a tough Clone Captain with tons of action scenes. Now in this episode they have interwoven their stories and made Fives a completely unique invididual who has added depth to Rex's character by making him reconsider his role in the war.

Oh, and hurry up and go to YouTube to watch those commentaries from the Season 1 set. They were seriously the best part of that Season 1 set. Besides all the color they add, Filoni and Gilroy added some great moments of humor.

 

I loved the bit when they were talking about the fart in Downfall of a Droid.

 

Gah. Best CW episode yet. I loved, loved, loved, loved, loved it. I just...gah. Amazing.

 

At least you tried.

 

A very good episode.

I really liked the friendly fire part of the show. Made humans out of the clones.

 

I think TCW made humans out of the clones in S1E01.

I still can't watch that scene without feeling punched in the gut.

 

Where does the friendly fire scene leave to 212th? Members of whom marched right along with Rex to arrest and take down Krell. They were pretty human along with the 501st.

 

I don't know. I imagine the effect would be the same as with any military personnel in that situation - disbelief, guilt, anger, the like. I tend to agree that for the vast majority of troopers - 501st and 212th - the incident simply reflected badly on the Jedi as a whole - only a handful of experienced clones (the dissenters, primarily - Rex, Fives, Jesse) actually saw the bigger picture.

We'll never see it, but I'd like to see what Commander Wolffe would have done in that friendly-fire situation, although as you've said before, he and his men probably would have been gone down in the first battle of "The General". Which was of course Krell's plan for Rex and his men all along.

 

In the end it was only Rex that saw the really big picture. Fives doesn't really see past the war.

I think Wolffe and actually Cody both would of gone down with their men way back in "The General" and never would of made it to the airbase. Particularly Wolffe. Rex and Fives real monkey wrenches.

 

I've watched this episode a few times, and I'm still impressed with how well done the "friendly fire" scene is... from Rex's realization and the subsequent realizations of the others, to the gut wrenching reactions they have to it, it is just impressive how this show pulled it off. Probably the heaviest part of what is definitely one of the heaviest TCW episodes yet.

 

Agreed. It was definitely one of their biggest deliveries on the promise that S4 would be more cinematic.

 

I would respond to that, but another example I would mention involves M0R715 and I'm not risking getting flamed about that.

 

[image=http://www.ximages.net/images/06936182708533674150.jpg]

How dare you write that in 1337!

 

Sorry for the necromancy but I want to address this:

Why did only Krell (thus far) have visions of the Republic and the Jedi crumbling, and a new power rising in their place?

It has to do, IMO, with the shroud of the Dark Side, which has fallen at the end of the CW and has diminished the ability of the Jedi to forsee the future.

However Krell, with his powerful abilities and experience as a Jedi Master AND combined with his connection and usage of the Dark Side of the Force was able to penetrate the veil briefly that ONLY blinded the Light Side, not Dark Siders.

So, Krell probably started turning Dark earlier than this arc, possibly even before Geonosis, and sometimes before this arc he foresaw the fall of the Jedi and decided to join the winning side and thus survive and prosper.

A calculating decision, and in some ways an intelligent one. And Krell was intelligent. Just listen to him speak. And no, he could not reveal his visions to the Council or any Jedi, for then he would have to reveal he was using the Dark Side.

Anyhow, this was a very well done episode. The entire buildup was well done. Krell should have survived this arc, even if he was imprisoned. He would have made a fantastic addition to the SW roster of dark characters. Heck, even Dooku may have been but a stepping stone for him...being a Jedi Master he obviously knew the rule of two no reason not to consider he wasn't intending to off Dooku too eventually and take his place.

 

Yeah, this is a pretty old post. No, I don't think Krell would be the only one to have visions. He is the only example thus far in TCW however of the Jedi who has fallen because of the war. I disagrees with you that he understands the Republic is crumbling. He may well sense this but Krell seems to be interpreting his vision as the CIS is going to win, wipe out the Jedi, and establish a new order. I don't think Krell clearly sees the Empire rising from the Republic.

Krell is channeling the darkside. There isn't really anything to give me a bench mark on how powerful he is. Visions seem normal for force users on both side. Anakin and Ahsoka and Yoda have them.

Krell is just a prop character as I said in the other thread. He exists to be mean as hell. He's just as smart has he needs to be. Tup of all clones manages to outsmart Krell. Krell has his own agena he keeps hidden. He seeks to survive and wants power serving no one but himself.