Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 418: Crisis on Naboo Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Gry Sarth, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    But - but - but Anakin is protecting himself. Obi-Wan is hurting him - you know, lack of trust and all. :_|



    :rolleyes:
  2. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    Isn't Anakin supposed to be hypocritical?
  3. Seerow SWTV★Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    Isn't Anakin supposed to be hypocritical?
  4. quigonobi2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2011
    I am going to throw an interesing question would Obi Wan have been able to do this if Qui Gon was alive and would the council have kept Qui Gon in the dark as they did Anakin ?
  5. Togruta Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2010
    star 4
    But Anakin isn't Qui-Gon..

    When it comes to Anakin vs. Obi-Wan who-was-right talk, people seem to show bias toward one and blame/hate the other. But I don't see why they can't both be right, and wrong. I mean.. Sith happens, right? lol
  6. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    If you are talking in-universe, they probably would have let Qui-Gon know, because he's not a "loose cannon" as Yoda sort of implied Anakin is. Plus we know Qui-Gon does "what he must" so he must accept "what others must" - [face_talk_hand] - oh, wait - others must do as he must. (I really noticed in the TPM re-release how Qui-Gon is always pronouncing how others have to follow his lead, take his word, accept his reasoning...)

    The truth is the Council wanted to sell Obi-Wan's "death" by getting an authentic reaction from Anakin. He doesn't do the stoic Jedi thing well.

    And to the other question raised about who is right or wrong - I agree it's not really one OR the other. Obi-Wan's fake death was a horrible thing to put upon his friends and padawan, but the alternative -

    The best one could do is what they did and then clue in Anakin ASAP (but I do wonder if they had done so promptly, he'd have been able to hide his total change of demeanor from his friend Palpatine...); ultimately, it's something we can't know for sure.
  7. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    I'm not so sure they would have told Qui-gon myself. Simply because it seemed only Mace and Yoda knew about the secret mission. That's why I took them for masterminds and Obi for a volunteer. Did you guys get the impression the rest of the Jedi Council or anybody else even knew? Ofcourse they never did or said anything either.
  8. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Wouldn't be so sure- they probably want to use Bane, Boba and probably Embo and Bossk again so they have now many bounty hunters inside the prison- unless they continue like they did with Aurra Sing- and use prison as some sort of inn instead- where everywhere can come and go and have a good time[face_coffee] Also existing animation models for prison and prisoners probably are used to make more prison breaks in the future- they really seem to use same ideas again and again (Anakin vs. Dooku or Kenobi vs. Grievous or world being oppressed by CIS and released by the Republic) so they won't stop doing prison breaks they have done many already- Hostage Crisis(that was very similar to basic idea of this arc- this was like extended version of same idea -new plot of same kind that went wrong), then Citadel what was another way around (breaking in and out of CIS-prison) and they probably make at least one prison break in the future with Bane and Embo.
  9. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    The trivia stuff on the OS says "Deception" won't be the last time Boba and Cad Bane work together and we'll be seeing them together in the future. So I'm sure we'll be seeing Embo and co in the future. They kinda need to get out of prison to really do much.
  10. SpecialOpsUnit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2007
    star 4
    We still have to get some type of prison break anyway with all the darn CIS leaders still in there.
  11. Seerow SWTV★Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    Actually with TCW we could very well catch up with these guys randomly out walking on the street.
  12. Veloz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2004
    star 6
    Yeah, these were my thoughts when i saw that bit o_O
  13. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think Palps staged this to pit Anakin against Dooku. That seems a little too far fetched.

    None of these gripes would mean anything if the mission succeeded, but now I wondering how they're going to explain how the captured Seps get freed? They wasted a great idea in having the kidnapping fail.
  14. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    The whole thing was about seeing Anakin fight Dooku up close. This kidnapping plot was not about freeing the Separatist leaders. They were probably a long ways from Palpatines mind. It was a ruse twice. I'm positive the Separatist leaders will be freed at a later time. It seems like another prison break plot is in the works. Would fit nicely with promoting AOTC 3D along with Mandalorian Mercenaries and Clones.
  15. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    "And what connection?"

    The connection between Rako Hardeen and Obi-Wan Kenobi. What Anakin says at the end of the episode doesn't just mean that he just felt Obi-Wan through the Force, but that he felt a connection. If he had just felt Obi-Wan, he would have simply said, 'I felt Obi-Wan'. But he didn't. He said 'I felt a connection'.

    "When did he ever felt something like that before? The previous episode?"

    GG, rewatch the scene in "Friends and Enemies" where Anakin regains consciousness after being knocked; right after Bane and the others leave. That's where he felt the connection.
  16. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    There was a payoff from this deception. Anakin's conversation with Obi-Wan after the kidnapping attempt in "Crisis of Naboo" perfectly sums up how he felt about being decieved and on top of it, it strained Anakin's relationship with both Obi-Wan and the Council.

    Also, while it's true that the writers could have given an explicit statement saying that Anakin knew that Obi-Wan was Hardeen, they didn't need to. The ending of "Friends and Enemies" gives enough away so that the audience knows that Anakin pieced what was going on. Not everything needs to be spelled out to the audience.
  17. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Too little, too late. It's not the same thing to tackle an issue days after the discovery, and once everything has been settled for a while, as opposed to exploring the dismay and anger as it rises inside Anakin.
  18. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    Robimus, look at this. Granted, in most of the clips, you never clearly see the faces of the people when they do faint, but look at the women at 0:27. Look at her face. She doesn't widen her eyes when she loses consciousness. Look at the guy at 3:05 and the guy at 5:50. Anakin didn't widen his eyes when he fainted.

    Also, when Anakin says, "I don't understand, but we're going to get to the bottom of this", he's saying that because there is still a lot of questions that need to be answered like, for example, why didn't the council tell him Obi-Wan is still alive? Why wasn't he informed about what was going on?

    Like I said, I think Anakin did indeed sense a connection in that scene because Anakin never mentions such a connection or the fact that Obi-Wan is still alive in his previous encounter with Rako Hardeen(when he was taking him to prison). Why does he only say this stuff at the end of their second encounter with each other?

    Another thing, Anakin didn't need Yoda to confirm anything. When he says, "So I was right, Obi-Wan is still alive" that implies that he did indeed think that Obi-Wan was still alive before he saw Yoda. He seemed pretty sure of that at the end of "Friends and Enemies" when he told Ahsoka the exact same thing "Obi-Wan is alive". Yoda didn't summon Anakin to confirm Obi-Wan was alive; rather, he summoned Anakin to admit that decieving him in the first place was wrong.

    I sort of agree with your last paragraph, but I don't think Anakin finding out that Obi-Wan was Rako Hardeen was done off-screen. I suppose they could have given an explicit statement at the end of "Friends and Enemies" though...
  19. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    Look, it's true that Anakin has some secrets, but that doesn't mean Anakin can't feel the way he does about the Council(and Obi-Wan decieving him). Up until this point, Anakin probably never thought that Obi-Wan was capable of such a thing. I mean, up until this point, the two were portrayed like brothers; the best of buds.
  20. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    You point out a very good and very true point - to Anakin, his lies and deceptions are justified (end justifies the means).

    Obi-Wan's and by extension every one else's lies are not justified for roughly two main reasons:

    1. His (their)lie(s) are deceiving him and that is not acceptable (the self-view Anakin hasn't grown out of)

    2. Anakin's faith in himself and the world around him wavers because he's been proven wrong. He knows Obi-Wan would never lie to him (hold him back, yes, :p ) and now he's been proven wrong. What else might Obi-Wan be lying about - all these years and he's never suspected so maybe Obi-Wan is a walking deception.

    Backing up #2, I think unconsciously Anakin does think of Obi-Wan as an anchor, something solid and uncorruptible. He also believes Obi-Wan puts principles ahead of everything and anyone, and if he thinks one of those principles is 100% absolute honesty with no half truths or truth shading, then he doesn't really know who Obi-Wan is at all.

    I'm sure that shakes his confidence if only deep inside and we'll see that "only Palpatine" will not lie to him or "use him" as a pawn to further his own agenda.

    So, definitely from Anakin's POV he has been used and emotionally wrecked by one of the men he most respects.

    From Obi-Wan's POV, he was upholding his principles: saving the Chancellor and by extension possibly the Republic; something greater than a man's feelings.

    The truth is both POVs and something in between as well.
  21. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    While Anakin's lies are definitly self serving to me they aren't quite on the same level as Obi-Wan's deception.

    Ultimatly Anakin's lies are of a worse nature, at least the Tusken slaughter is, than what Obi-Wan did. Anakin keeps his secrets because the penalty for revealing them would be expulsion from the Jedi Order. If he gets thrown out of the Jedi Order he can no longer protect those that he cares for, as in Obi-Wan, Ahsoka and to a lesser extent Padme.

    Anakin keeps his secrets because he thinks its for the betterment of those around him. He doesn't keep these secrets from Obi-Wan because he doesn't trust him, he doesn't keep those secrets because it may compromise a mission, he keeps those secrets because he has a deep routed fear of losing his loved ones.

    Its a different dynamic than Obi-Wan's secret. Obi and the Council not trusting Anakin, or even using Anakin's emotions to further their deception, after so many years and missions together - hundreds of life and death situations, after he's put his life on the line over and over again for the Jedi and the Republic, is what makes it different.

    Anakin has all kinds of issues, but I totally understand why Anakin is upset and really do side with him. Yoda and Obi-Wan made a decision to use Anakin as a pawn in their game when they knew ahead of time what it would do to him. I think the fact that Yoda admits it was wrong is very telling. That little troll doesn't admit to errors very often:p

    Anyway all this discussion is simply highlighting why the primary focus of this arc should have been the relationship bewtween Anakin and the Jedi, with the whole kidnapping plot taking a back seat to the meaningful emotion of this situation. Instead the writers shoved the emotional, character building aspects of the plot aside to fit in tons of befuddling kidnapping action and a stupid box, full of other boxes, that had traps.

    Basically they dumned it down and almost killed everything that would have been meaningful about the story. Because it held such potential I think thats why the failure is so much more accute.
  22. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    No, I believe it was nicely wrapped up. The character-focused aspects were not shoved aside. They were merely a major subplot. By the time the plot is foiled in the second act of this episode, they come to the fore and become the main focus. At the end of the day, TCW is an action show rather than a cerebral psychological drama, and the animation style is best suited to action. What we actually got was good character development.

    All in all, this was very well done. Either 8 or 9 out of 10 from me.

    Anyway, I'd say Rako Hardeen - the face who saved the Republic - might show up in later seasons as a Republic counterpart to Cad Bane.
  23. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I'm sorry but 40 seconds in a 22 minute long program just isn't enough for me. And yeah I went back and timed it.:oops:

    I just watched this again and that is far from what I took from it. When Mace says to Obi-Wan that he can tell that something is troubling him, Obi immediatly responds with his worries about the past mission. Anakin is only a thought because he made him think about the mission.

    I just don't see any character development in this arc for Obi-Wan at all. If anything it makes him cooler and more aloof than he previously was.
  24. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Anyway all this discussion is simply highlighting why the primary focus of this arc should have been the relationship bewtween Anakin and the Jedi, with the whole kidnapping plot taking a back seat to the meaningful emotion of this situation. Instead the writers shoved the emotional, character building aspects of the plot aside to fit in tons of befuddling kidnapping action and a stupid box, full of other boxes, that had traps.


    I quite agree. I'd love to see "them" (whoever "them" is, whether it be different scenes with different characters) debate this and really lay out their reasons and have the other "side's" rebuttal.

    One does not have to like the deception to think that perhaps the Council thought it prudent and necessary in war. One does not have to think emotional harm to several trumps duty to the greater good. Personally I see and agree with both viewpoints at the same time.

    The issue is far more complex than reducing it to duty vs harm. The entirety of the arguments either way should have been aired, even if somewhat abbreviated because of story length, because I'm not sure there is a clear right and wrong. There is wrong AND right in both viewpoints regardless of whether one is more disposed to accept one side of the equation than the other.

    Ultimately, it comes down to our (the viewers) viewpoint of which argument is more valid or perhaps, less harmful.

    This was the real meats and potatoes of the arc, if not in execution.

    (I had this written up last night and the internet went down so it's a bit late to the discussion.)


    Certainly we can interpret that differently, but Anakin was "part" of that mission - his deception was a necessary element. I don't think it's a stretch to think Anakin factored into Obi-Wan's reflections on all that had transpired. To "do good" he had to lie and hurt people he cared about and he had to stand by while others were killed, things that probably against his very definition of "being Jedi."

    As executed, certainly, it was (meant to be) a major subplot. However it was executed as a minor subplot. Many of us think it needed more prominence due to its very importance to later developments. While it may continue to reverberate throughout coming episodes, which would be a cool way to emphasize its importance without showcasing it, TCW has shown a distressing tendency to avoid consequences.

  25. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I'd love to see something from Obi-Wan(in this show) that gives me the impression thats how he really feels.

    This comes back in many ways to tip toed around themes about the ethics of using the Clone Army or the Jedi serving as soldiers in any army. Many have differing viewpoints, and its easy to see both sides of the arguements, but ultimatly for each individual its going to boil down to feeling that someone was right and someone was wrong.

    I don't think that too many people are going to share your veiws that everybody was right, all the time. That same line of thought can also legitimize the actions of the Sith. I mean really they were just doing what they thought was right for the galaxy as well.

    I actually think it would be pretty easy to make an arguement based on just the films and this show that Palaptine really does care about both society and Anakin on a deep level. Would that justify his actions as well?