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TCW Episode The Clone Wars: Episode 418: Crisis on Naboo Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Gry Sarth, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 6
    Honestly, if you wanted a thought out answer with some supporting "evidence" I don't have the time right now (I'm sneaking in at work). The use of clones is definitely one of those "troubling" issues but this is not the thread for that (see the thread in Prequels).

    So the short answer: Sids justified (to Anakin) what he was doing with an excuse that it was for the good of the galaxy but in actuality his goal was selfish. It never was about establishing safety or whatever nebulous terms he wished to use - is it the EU that has his empire turning human-centric and downgrading the other species? It was the pursuit of power for himself and for the Sith.

    The Jedi, at least, pursued what they thought was the best path to peace for all.

    That's a huge difference in objective viewing.
  2. Robimus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    By starting a war.;)

    Of course Palpatine is the bad guy, this we know. But I really don't feel the whole everyone was right, everyone was justified, take of the situation works at all.
  3. Togruta Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2010
    star 4
    To me, I think it's more about understanding why so-and-so did what they did. And if everyone's right in their own way, I guess that means they're also wrong in their own way. Certain POV and all that.
  4. Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2010
    star 3
    The Jedi didn't start a war. They accepted an expansion of their duties as agents of the Republic by taking command of an army they know they had nothing to do with creating. This goes back to "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".

    Yoda means to keep a close eye on the events as they unfold, hoping to get to the heart of the "mystery of the Sith" i.e. their return, who is at the head of the new Sith Order, what their plan is etc.

    This fails for the reasons dramatized in the feature films. Yoda doesn't feel that the word of a Sith can be trusted, so he takes Dooku's revelation with a dose of heavy skepticism. Sidious is creating "mistrust" and schism within the Jedi order to tear it apart, which works.
  5. GGrievous Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Oh, the Jedi could have the blame too.
  6. QuangoFett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Really? That's interesting because there is much more in relation to character development than just Anakin's single confrontation with Obi-Wan:


  7. Anakin abruptly leaving the briefing with a remark about Obi-Wan doing his part. Clearly, Obi-Wan's non-death is a sore issue for him;

  8. Anakin later confiding in Palpatine about the Jedi Council keeping him in the dark and Palpatine subtly telling him that the Jedi consider him an outsider;

  9. Anakin realising that even Padme is going behind his back, about a banquet albeit, but the seed of doubt is planted;

  10. Obi-Wan, as he races to save the Chancellor, stops to make sure Anakin is fine after being fried and flung across the room. It seems he's trying to compensate somewhat for his deception. Only someone deeply cynical about Obi-Wan would say that this was solely about him making sure he has backup when taking on Dooku. Anakin is the one who shrugs the concern off;


  11. That brief confrontation next to the assault ship is significant, despite its brevity. As I said, TCW is an action-focused show and this episode needed to conclude the kidnapping plot. As it has always done, TCW did not need to drag this out to get the point across that Anakin relationship with Obi-Wan and the Council is becoming strained.

    None at all?

    Go back to the "newsreel" at the beginning of Deception. Obi-Wan is looking slightly distressed at something, evidently the whole deception scheme.

    After his confrontation with Anakin, he is genuinely distressed by his reaction. He does in fact mope about on the bridge, in a subtle Obi-Wan-style manner. He effectively tells Mace that he's sick of the deception when he says that it is time to go back to being Obi-Wan Kenobi, subtly hinting at his reaction to Anakin's outburst. His overall demeanour has changed in that scene. The fact that he simply goes back to the mission is not a sign of him becoming cold and aloof towards Anakin. It just shows us the in-character Obi-Wan.

    Obi-Wan is not Qui-Gon Jinn. He is still a consummate Jedi Master who, despite his attachment to Anakin, is very much focused on the mission and tries his hardest to let go of his attachments. In ROTS, he sees his own life as expendable and subordinate to the mission, shown when he tells Anakin to leave him to the buzz droids and to rescue the Chancellor.

    As much as Obi-Wan can, he shows regret and pain at what he did.

    I agree about the avoidance of consequences. I'd be disappointed if the upcoming Maul arc lacked any of these themes, particularly when Obi-Wan should be prominently featured as Maul's killer.
  12. Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 6
    I hereby dub thee Defender of the Kenobism Faith. We already have the High Mucky-Muck of Kenobism in the (film) Community section - er, High Keeper.

    What TCW did not give us in quantity they gave us in quality. Obi-Wan had many regrets before and after and I think they weighed heavily on him before he set them aside to be the good Jedi he is. He knows how deeply wounded Anakin was (but I think he'd do it all over again unless new knowledge came to light).

    I don't intend to diminish Anakin's emotional pain, nor am what I am about to say meant to belittle him - but he if were a "good Jedi" he wouldn't have taken it so hard at the time or after. (Of course that is exactly why they did deceive him.)

    Quick note: the plot seems a lot less unnecessarily convuluted and frenetic upon a 3rd viewing.
  13. Robimus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Anakin's discussion with Obi-Wan is(or should have been) the single payoff for the entire arc. It falls way short for me.

    Even if you add up all the times of the scenes you mention what does it total? 2 minutes? 3 Minutes?

    To me, Anakin's discsussions with the Jedi are secondary because I don't honestly believe that Anakin is as close to the Jedi Order as he is to Obi. To Anakin the fact that the Jedi Order doesn't trust him will not be as heavy an emotional weight as the fact that a man who is like his brother doesn't.


  14. Seerow Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    Anakin is certainly right to be upset. The arc is all about bad communication, mistrust, and using each other like pawns. Anakin isn't closer to the Jedi order although he has a mix of ego, inferiority complex, and entitlement complex that causes him to greatly value their opinion. He wants to be an ace they can trust with anything and he probably feels he needs to be if his motive for being a Jedi is all about protecting those he loves. I've often wondered if Anakin can see his own faults. Anakin is upset the council doesn't trust him, he needs them to trust him but is most wounded by Obi-wan for lying to him. If no one else he thought Obi-wan would be truthful to him. It shakes his image of the man he admires. It bursts the bubble he's been living in. Really when Obi-wan went back to complete the mission after figuring it out. I thought it wasn't about the mission but was about Anakin. He seems so torn up and mostly over using Anakin. That the professional that is Obi-wan said to hell with it and just wanted to redeem himself to Anakin for hurting him. Which is only babying everything that's wrong with Anakin.
  15. quigonobi2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2011
    How do you think Anakin & Obi Wans relationship will pan out for the rest of season 4 and into season 5 ?
  16. Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 6
    If it's typical TCW, it'll be off screen and shrugged off (or maybe Anakin will wail to Palpatine or somesuch).

    However, with Maul popping up again - that could be interesting. Anakin as a boy worshipped Qui-Gon, his former master is the one to avenge that death (all that is Anakin-POV), and now Obi-Wan may have lied to him about that as well? I don't think they'll go the "he lied again" route, personally, but it is possible.

    Has there been any spoilers/previews that hint of anything in their relationship?
  17. Seerow Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    So far I've only seen that little teaser trailer. I imagine Anakin will go dark side again and both him and Anakin stand to get some more character development out of it. Few spoilers if any have emerged from that arc.
  18. AvadaKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2009
    star 2
    They didn't start the war.
    It was always turning since the world's been burning.
    They didn't start the war.
    No, they didn't start it, but they still fought it.


    Yeah...that didn't work out as well as I thought it would, lol. But that song was the first thing that came to mind when I read that. :)

  19. Drunk_Lando Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2010
    star 1
    What does trust have to do with anything? Unless you wanted to say the Jedi Council didn't think Anakin was a good enough actor to be believably upset over Obi-Wan's fake death. The Jedi didn't trick him for fun. There could be CIS spies everywhere and the Council wanted it to be believable that Obi-Wan was "dead."

    So Anakin is mad at the council for lying to him. Well, he needs to suck-it-up! He is a Jedi Knight, a general in the Grand Army of the Republic, and is in a massive galaxy wide space war. Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace are his superiors, and his job is to follow orders. If he has a problem, then he can quit the Jedi Order or give up his command.

    And that line from Palpatine about how he thought the Jedi worked as a team when Anakin said he wasn't included then the plan. There are thousands of Jedi spread around the galaxy. I'm sure everybody, except the Jedi Council members, were left in the dark. So do all of them have the right to be angry and the Council for tricking them.

    To me, the only reason the episode brought up a trust issue is because TCW shows favoritism towards Anakin. His whole "maybe you don't know the whole truth" and the whole ending fight with Dooku was just there so Anakin could be the big hero at the end. And Mace and Yoda were continually being dumbed down during the arc. They didn't complain about Palpatine sending Anakin after Hardeen and the others after he know the Jedi had a plan going on, which caused interference. They didn't complain about Anakin going off on his own without telling them, jeopardizing their plans. They did not think about why Dooku didn't meet the bounty hunters. And the whole, we can to send Palpatine's protection away because we caught the bounty hunters, but meanwhile Dooku is still out there with a massive droid army under his command. You would think Naboo would want the extra security with Palpatine there, because it makes Naboo a bigger target for attack. Did people forget there is a war going on.
  20. Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2010
    star 3
    I just rewatched all 4 eps. They reward a second viewing together as one long story. It's really great. As good as anything in the OT. While one more ep would have made this fully fleshed out, it still works beautifully.
  21. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Bull****.
  22. Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 5
    At least now I know the flickering is supposed to be there. I figured it was like the flickering of the "shape-shifter" that we saw but wasn't really there (since the shape-shifter in Ep. II it was copied from didn't flicker) back in Holocron Heist. So these flickers or flickerers or flickererers are real. That's good to know.

    This episode was so much more awesome for me than it would have otherwise been because I've been reading select parts of the Ep. III novel I really wanted to read in full (I've never read the whole novel), and I just happened to start with all the Palpatine/Anakin stuff from before the attempted assassination by Mace Windu. So this episode doubles down on more fully explaining Anakin's turn to the Dark Side in at least two really important ways: the Jedi Council has this elaborate lie they orchestrate that he can barely believe and is really pissed about, so he knows they're willing to hide stuff from him when they think it's justified - and - at the very end, Anakin pledges to Palpatine that he'll do anything to save him.
  23. Seerow Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    I would of rather them left the hologram disguises to my imagination.

    BTW, WB Tarkas.
  24. Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 5
  25. Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 5
    Just watched Ep. III last night.

    Have to say, I REALLY hope this episode has the last Anakin/Dooku duel in TCW.

    I think the whole "my powers have doubled since last we met, Count" works so much better after this duel than any other duel between them in TCW. Anakin getting so intense, Palpatine looking on in glee just he like he does in Ep. III, Tyranus taunting Anakin as he escapes and blaming the retreat on Obi-Wan, I just think it works great. It would be a lot worse and not have nearly as much tension if their last confrontation before Ep. III was Shadow Warrior, for example.
  26. InterestingLurker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    I agree. The Anakin vs. Dooku battle meshes much metter with the Anakin vs. Dooku battle in ROTS.

    Also, nice to have you back Tarkas.
  27. quiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 2
    You see this is one of the things that this episode brought out that shows just how well Palpatine played Anakin. In reality Anakin while initially upset should have understood the need for secrecy in this. The reality is if Anakin knew then Ahsoka needed to know and just where do you draw the line, there is the good old saying if more then one person knows it no longer is a secret. In my mind the reason Anakin lets this get to him more then it should is because of all the ego boasts given to him by Palpatine saying he's the best, bla bla. Anakin who wants to be the best lets that go to his head and feels he's right and the council is wrong. Thus Palpatine has created a rift between Anakin and the council where one should not exist. In this case Anakin didn't need to know until he came close to interacting with Obi, and when that happened Obi gave the secret away.

    Another nugget of this episode that is overlooked is it also previews just how bad Anakin's attachment issues are, he shows too Ahsoka, the council and Obi that he is way too attached to Obi.
  28. Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 5
    Anakin looks really menacing during Obi-Wan's funeral in the beginning of Deception, and his Brain Invaders-moment with the bartender in Friends and Enemies was also great. There really still hasn't been that much of this type of thing in TCW so far if you look at how many episodes have something like that out of the total number of episodes, but S4 is definitely stepping it up with at least 2 - 3 times the amount of any other season. The slavery arc has at least another two examples right there. Does any other season of TCW have any more than one or two Dark Side Anakin moments?

    Thanks, Lurker! [face_alien_1]
  29. Robimus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    So I'll bite the bullet here.

    Can someone explain to me what the plot of this entire episode was? What exactly was Palaptine's plan, why did he organize a kidnapping of himself?

    It seems extremely convuluting to me that Palaptine organized this whole plan just to hopefully get Dooku and Anakin in a room toghter. It seems to me that the odds of that exact end actually happening would be pretty vague. I know "never tell me the odds".

    And what were Embo and the other Bounty Hunter thinking when they got told the plan, and that there part in the plan was to play decoy and get captured by the Republic? It juts seems bizarre to me, but many people have rated these episodes very highly so there must be something more to this that I'm not seeing? Maybe?
  30. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Completely agree with your frustration and confusion, Robimus. When you look at the big picture, it all makes very little sense. That's why I rate the final two episodes very poorly. It all looked very promising by Friends and Enemies, but as the plot started to unravel, we saw that it really had nothing to it.