Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 418: Crisis on Naboo Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Gry Sarth, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    I saw it differently, which I've explained in its discussion thread. Nothing really pointed out that he actually knew Obi-Wan was Hardeen at that point. He might have used Force sense a little too late (which makes no sense considering that Anakin had Obi-Wan right in his hand in the last episode). But if he felt Obi-Wan was alive at the end of the Friends and Enemies, I didn't really see it being he thought Obi-Wan was Hardeen, but rather Obi-Wan was alive.
  2. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    Nothing pointed that he didn't know who Obi-Wan was. The scene with Yoda showed that at that point, Anakin did figure it out.
  3. GGrievous Chosen One

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    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    You said he found out at the end of Friends and Enemies, which made no sense since Anakin flat out did not do anything or suggest that he knew Obi-Wan was Hardeen. "Widen eyes" meant nothing and only, possibly, contributed to him feeling Obi-Wan was alive later on.

    Granted that scene in the Box had an odd placement in a filler episode, but that scene could've been done so much better than it was.
  4. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    I think I completely underestimated Anakin's intelligence here. Looking at all four parts of the arc together I think Anakin really did start to unravel it when Hardeen said -- "Anakin don't follow me". I also think it was implied when he told Ahsoka they were going to get to the bottom of this that Anakin was meaning to go back to Coruscant and grill the Jedi Council on what was going on and sometime there after either put it together himself or was told. At the beginning of "The Box" Anakin clearly knew what was going on after all. Originally I thought he didn't. It seems unambiguous enough the viewer is meant to decide for his or herself. But I don't think it was intended that way. In "The Box" Anakin said "Obi-wan will do his part" albeit angrily and Anakin knew he was looking at Obi-wan the next time he came face to face with him in this episode. I kinda think people are over thinking this. That's not intended to be an attack on anyone, I'm just sayin.
  5. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    To me this was the only thing that mattered in this arc, as in the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan's deception of Anakin and his subsequent reaction to it.

    As GG said, it was left ambiguous, as if the enitre situation was resolved off screen between The Box and Crisis on Naboo.

    I mean nothing else in this arc had any significance. The enitre kidnapping plot is irrelevent becasue we know that Palaptine isn't really in jeopardy. All that the arc had going for it was expanding the emotional damage done to Anakin by the faking of Obi-Wan's death.

    How Anakin learns the truth and subsequently deals with the truth was the story, and they sluffed it off like it was of no greater significance than Embo's Hat hiding in a hologram.
  6. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Some good points brought up: I'll have to rewatch so I'll just skim my initial reaction:

    The Parwen went THRU the ray shields to deactivate them. Straight out of the box.

    Obi-Wan clued Mace in about the "Chancellor's" kidnapping, didn't he? Then Mace alerted Anakin, so the two might well have escaped. So, combined with the one shot, maybe they were drawing Obi-Wan out while having this second plan in mind?

    I think the action went so fast that it appears convoluted and rushed...




  7. AvadaKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2009
    star 2
    I questioned whether or not Anakin knew Obi-Wan was Rako at the end of Friends and Enemies as well in that episode's discussion thread. If Anakin knew that Rako was Obi-Wan, I would think that he would've mentioned that when he spoke with Yoda in The Box. I just figured that it was addressed off screen at some point between The Box and Crisis on Naboo, which isn't fun, but oh well.

    It's the failing of the 22 minute format. I don't think I would've cut out The Box in order to get more character development between Anakin and Obi-Wan because it was an action-packed episode in the middle of a four-part arc. I think it was needed to break up the pace a bit. And also was an excuse to bring in a bunch of bounty hunters and get Embo back into the public eye for a bit of fanservice. Though, an episode like The Box would've been awesome in the "Rise of the Bounty Hunters" season.

    Sometimes I wonder how much better this show would be if it had 45 minutes a week to tell a story. Things could go a bit slower and breathe a bit. And an episode could have a good balance of action and drama or comedy without having to be completely one or the other.

    That said, I was happy with the arc as a whole. Just a little disappointed in some of the heavy-handed storytelling in this episode.
  8. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Even when it gets to the actually confrontation between Obi-Wan and Anakin it once again pulls the rug out. In mid conversation Obi-Wan shrugs off the conversation and goes back to thinking about the past mission, like it was ever important in the first place, like talking to Anakin really didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
  9. Fistofan55 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2009
    star 3
    My apologies. The scene with the shockies was one of those blink and you miss moments. I thought Anakin and Mace just left Embo and Twazzi there (seemed believable with this show full of plotholes).
    It likely did happen off screen though. Embo can outmaneuver those troopers with ease without weapons. If he is shown in prison next....then yeah, I will share your disapointment.
    Looks like they may have a pulled Fisto-death on Embo....illogical and unlikely.....

    "Arrested" and "going to prison" are two different things. "Arrested" means you have a chance. "Prison" means you're in the slammer.

    This brings up what I said above....I fail to see why this makes him a "wuss" though....

    I wouldn't say "diminished" but I would say "neglected". "Diminished" would be Pre Vizla.
  10. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    I thought that in the middle of their conversation where Anakin goes off about lying it seemed like Obi-wan got real torn up and his head clouded with doubts about his actions and the Jedi council's. Mace caught him moping around. That stayed with him throughout last part of the episode even when Obi-wan went off to rescue Anakin. I don't think he cared at all about any mission at that point.
  11. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I quite concur.

    It seems obvious to me that Obi-Wan was wrestling with the consequences to the point that Mace even noticed AND commented on it. That was a real character development moment of which this series so often lacks. Bravo, TCW.

    Now, if they could have fit in just a few more moments here and there, small moments that didn't interrupt the action but advanced THE plot of this arc (Anakin's growing distrust of the Council).

    I found it interesting that Anakin shoots at Obi-Wan a line about what might be hidden from him (Obi-Wan). He wants Obi-Wan to think that maybe he's a puppet and a pawn just like Anakin.

    Sadly, everyone is a puppet and a pawn of Palpatine - too bad Anakin couldn't have dug deeper.

    As for Palpatine's role in this: I doubt he planned in advance Anakin's duel with Dooku or Obi-Wan going undercover. I think he was smart enough to grasp opportunities when they occurred and take advantage of them. His original idea could have been as simple as generating public sympathy for Palpatine (actually I doubt it would be anything that simple) with a faked kidnapping. It grew into more.
  12. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    I really do think this arc and this episode will turn out to be the most underrated in the series. I really do think Palpatine setup the whole thing. Finished watching all four parts and my thoughts are kinda a mess so I'll just sorta bullet point them. I'm probably the one over thinking this and giving to much credit but this is what I do. Here we go! Seerow attempts to connect the dots and explain the story of this arc!

    -Palpatine engineered the entire kidnapping plot to push Anakin away from the council and toward him. And also to see Anakin's progress and power up close when he dueled Dooku. Anakin is almost ready.
    -I think from Dooku's perspective the whole thing was an assassination attempt on Anakin Skywalker.
    -Palpatine is just ESP enough to see things and genius enough to put things together. I think he thinks through all kinds of scenarios and has backup plans ready for anything. Not all the time obviously, but most of the time. This arc is one of those times.
    -Palpatine engineered it so the Jedi would find out. He knows the Jedi will send someone undercover. There are clues as to who. This person has to be a great Jedi, a great actor, very self controlled, and have a big enough name to matter when the real Hardeen snipes him.
    -The Box is actually a mole trap. The Jedi who goes undercover will be sorted out there.
    -The plan itself was masterminded by Yoda and Mace. Obi-wan volunteers and fakes his death very believably by lying to Anakin. Its suspicious timing and helps that the guy who supposedly killed Obi-wan, Rako Hardeen whom was thrown in prison escapes with the very bounty hunter and a hired mastermind Dooku was using for the kidnapping plan. He pretty much invited himself to the party. That'd be suspicious enough.
    -When Palpatine convinces Anakin to go after Hardeen to 'seek justice' its not all about using that anger and vengeance to push him closer. That's just the icing. Palpatine knows an undercover Jedi is on the other end and that Anakin may find out who. Its about opening rifts wider. I think he was even atleast suspicious it was Obi-wan.
    -Rex seemingly does run interference for Anakin. Palpatine uses Rex's recently gained reputation and Mace's suspicions of him to hide his manipulations. Seems like Palpatine might have provoked him but the covertness of it seems all Anakin. Palpatine drives more wedges and quietly plays everyone of all calibers like its a game of The Sims.
    -Yoda and Mace decide its time Anakin knew the truth yet General Skywalker is not available so they must wait to tell him.
    -At the end of his fight with Hardeen and Bane, Hardeen tells Anakin to stop following him like some tough love. He feels Obi-wan is alive, suspects Hardeen is him which is only more confusing. Anakin tells Ahsoka they are going to go get to the bottom of this.
    -Its implied by that dialogue that Anakin went back to Coruscant where Mace and/ or Yoda must have told him. Anakin knows what's going on when him and Yoda talk. That's why he says Obi-wan will do his part and get the job done. I was wrong about this before.
    -When Hardeen invites himself to the party in "The Box" Dooku is immediately suspicious the moment Eval introduces him.
    -In the Box the bounty hunters are tested. Its part of weeding out the Jedi in disguise and part of making the kidnap attempt look real. Twazi and Embo's skills don't really matter because the last two survivors were always going to be expendable in the kidnapping plot although I don't think they knew it. Really all the bounty hunters were. But the mushroom guy's ability to take a serum and pass through a ray shield was used later. Cad Bane who kept up with the Jedi in disguise was put in charge, and the skills of a really good marksmen. The holographic disguise stuff is stolen from Senrich who died in the box. The challenges do make a little more sense considering what the bounty hunters did encounter.
    -Hardeen's performance, honor, and passion toward everyone making it through the box practically confirmed who he is. For good measure Dooku pits Hardeen against Eval. Obi-
  13. SpecialOpsUnit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2007
    star 4
    I'm gonna have to watch the arc again in order whether that's online or when the blu-rays come out I don't know yet.

    At first I was a bit disappointed but after seeing the arc as nothing but a ploy by Sideous to further distance Anakin from the council, and Obi-Wan to an extent and to see where Anakin is at this point compared to Dooku. Sideous couldn't base it off fights that Dooku has told him but he wanted to see it himself. He can clearly see that Anakin isn't ready to replace Dooku yet.

    The ending was brilliantly choreographed though, it looked was just stunning.
  14. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Jun 7, 2011
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    lol, check this out.

    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/droidekas/LukeBen.png]
  15. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Goodness forbid I watch this epsiode ever again, but I may have to in order to examine it further. I didn't get an impression at all from Obi-Wan that he's upset about what he or the Council did. The impression I get is that he was more upset that he hurt Anakin and that Anakin didn't get it.

    If they would have tossed out the useless action scenes, including yet another head shaking duel between Anakin & Dooku, and actually focused on the emotional content of the arc this would have been soooooooo much better.

    As someone else said these recurring Anakin vs Dooku confrontations totally take away from the duel in ROTS.
  16. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    When Ahsoka asks, "What is it? What's wrong?" Anakin says, "That's... why I felt a connection." That sentence shows Anakin felt Obi-Wan through the Force and when you feel someone through the Force, that means he's nearby. Anakin isn't dumb enough to not reach that conclusion and the audience isn't dumb enough to not know that Anakin figured it out at this point.

    Also, Anakin widening his eyes when Obi-Wan said to not follow him does mean something; it means that he had a revelation. Could you explain why the widened eyes meant nothing?

  17. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    That still does not convince me enough that Anakin was referring to Hardeen.

    And what connection? When did he ever felt something like that before? The previous episode? As far as I'm concerned, while he had Obi-Wan right in his grip, Anakin did nothing to show that he sensed that Hardeen was Obi-Wan at that time.

    For the eyes, go back and reread what I've said.
  18. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Oh yes, we are!

    Seriously, though. Would it have killed them to have Anakin say at some point something along the lines of "I can't believe it! This Hardine... is really Obi-Wan! He's alive! ... He's alive... and wouldn't even bother relieving me of my grief..."

    Give us some payoff for this deception...
  19. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I took his eyes movements as happening due to the fact that he was being rendering unconsious, which happens instantaneuosly with what you mention. He also mentions that he is confused and doesn't understand what is going on.

    The descriptions that appear on screen in the show are inadequate to confirm exactly what Anakin knew or didn't know, thats why so many people are confused. When he says "Thats whay I felt a connection", thats a vague statement. When did he feel this connection? And if he was so certin of the connection then why doesn't he understand what is happening?

    In his scene with Yoda in The Box, Yoda tells Anakin that Obi-Wan is alive - which Anakin takes as a confirmation of his feelings from the end of Friends and Enemies. If he was so sure then why did he need Yoda to confirm anything?

    Sure, we can piece this together off screen but it was presented in such a muddled fashion that we really have to make assumptions. A simple "So Obi-Wan is disguised as Hardeen" line from Anakin would have solved the whole issue when he was talking to Yoda. Instead it was presented in a cryptic manner that required us to fill in the blanks ourselves.

  20. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    This. As I said earlier, wouldn't a conversation about secrets between Ben and Anakin been great? Valairy or someone chimed in with the fact that Anakin's problem is with attachments.

    Anakin has always been presented as a "by any means necessary" kinda Jedi,mso I think he would have understood why Kenobi faked his death.


    Still think they should have discussed Anakin's relationships with Padme and Palpatine and that being the real reason they kept him in the dark.

    It's obvious in ROTS (& Obsession, etc) that Kenobi is well aware of Anakin's relationships.
  21. rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    Seerow, that was quite an analysis. I'd add that it was quite convenient that Obi-Wan was never put into a position where he had to actually kill anyone to prove his bounty-hunter cred. The prison guards and the maintenance workers immediately come to mind.
  22. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    I felt when I rewatched the arc that when Obi-wan doesn't finish Eval that he failed a test.
  23. rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    Very true. His lack of ruthlessness doesn't quite mesh with the real Hardeen.
  24. Gilrod Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2003
    star 1
    Are you saying they look like Luke and Ben? If so, check out some of the women. Dead ringers for Leia. I think a lot of the extras' models were borrowed from the Alderaan episode. That episode featured many women with hair like Leia's original hairdo.
  25. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Yeah I was, thought that was kinda funny