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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 419: Massacre Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by Barriss_Coffee, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2004
    It's a Voodoo doll!
    [image=http://thepropstop.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/tod-voodoo.jpg]
    STABZ IT!!
     
  2. vong333

    vong333 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2003
    You know what the problem is????? It's you guys, you can't accept the fact that this series is not bound by established EU. This show is only adhering to GL and the movies. The EU is there to serve this show with whatever it needs to fit holes. There have been so many interviews on it, its not even funny. Imagine the next three episodes, no wait seson 5 and 6. This is going to cahnge more and more. Like it or don't like, its what it is. Now I guess we have voodoo and extra powerful magic. Heck didn't we see some very super stuff with the Mortis trilogy? Then?
     
  3. quiller

    quiller Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Okay, that does make some sense, as there is a tendency for undead to appear a number of ways besides voodoo, and I agree totally with you on just how uninteresting the nightsister warriors were, and yes indeed you did bring up one of my main complaints about Ep2 with the Jedi in the arena dying way too easy.

    I still am waiting for people to realize also that the way they ended this episode they left plenty of material for later, Talzin can come back and be a pest later, Also on consideration I feel Dooku underestimated just how much power Talzin and I also What happen before Talzin can spin and lay off on Ventress's feet.

    edit: oh and star wars is as as star wars does.
     
  4. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    If anything this episode fits with established EU better than most so I'm not sure what your getting at. Not liking the voodoo'esk elements of the story is not the same thing as not liking this because it doesn't follow closely enough with the EU.

    In the EU we have Sith Magicians not unlike Talzin. We have undead being raised to fight the protaganists in multiple stories.

    Again, not liking the presentation of the Voodoo, or the finding of said Voodoo unoriginal has nothing to do with continuity. The Voodoo elements are something of a homage to, well, Voodoo, something this show does a lot of.
     
  5. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Eh, the magic stuff doesn't bother me. Everything in this episode was roughly equivalent to stuff we've seen in the EU. And even if it wasn't, I don't mind the more mystical aspects of the universe so long as they're balanced with more "realistic" stuff.

    The story that they're trying to tell is interesting. Ventress has abandonment issues---we've seen that before---and it's great that they're trying to explore that. After years of leading droids, Ventress suddenly has to come to terms with the true costs of failure when real lives are on the line. Especially when the people she's leading are her new "family".

    But... I didn't think the episode pulled it off very well. This episode wasn't bad, just not great. The "bonding" between Ventress and Karis felt forced, and Grievous was [mostly] disappointing. I disliked the Dooku voodoo doll scenes, but only because I would have hoped a Sith Lord could defend himself better than that.

    I did like Ventress begging Talzin not to leave her. Melodramatic, but I felt it worked. And I always appreciate the CIS flexing its military muscle.

     
  6. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2004
    That's the part that really caused me to dislike the voodoo aspect. What good is being a Sith Lord, with so much Dark Side power as Dooku obviously possesses, if a simple voodoo trick can nearly kill you? I can see Talzin's power being able to attack Dooku, but I'd rather have seen Dooku better defending himself against it (even counterattacking) than him in nearly helpless distress.
     
  7. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Agreed, I really wanted to see Darth Tyranus fighting back with his own Force powers, but we didn't even get to see him try.
     
  8. cwustudent

    cwustudent Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Dooku stayed on Serenno, because he fears Talzin. I have yet to hear HOW he can defend himself from magic... All you complainers, let's hear your bright ideas, please.
     
  9. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Dooku channels his Force lightning through the Voodoo doll. The voodoo doll starts zapping Mother Talzin!
     
  10. cwustudent

    cwustudent Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Dooku would need a target, a totem of Talzin. He can't just zap thin air and hope it makes it all the way to Dathomir. That's the point of the totem: she can attack his effigy, and he can't fight back. Otherwise, I'm sure he would.
     
  11. Gry Sarth

    Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 1999
    Wow, that's a real thinker. How about... "Use the Force"?
     
  12. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    The Count shouldn't have been able to fully defend himself, but he definitely should have at least tried to fight back. I actually don't think Force-lightning would have been the way to go though, he'd just be doing it at an apparition which would be a waste and probably look dumb. There are other things he could have done with the Force to try to fight back, nothing visually spectacular, just showing him fighting back with the Force like something from Ep. II or Ep. III.

    [face_laugh]
     
  13. cwustudent

    cwustudent Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Force push her? She's not in the same room. Zap her? She's not even on the same planet. "Use the Force." The best I can think of is, Dooku could call her up, and use the Force to strangle her; its how Vader killed Ozzel.
     
  14. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Dooku should Force choke the image of her when she comes rising out of his chest. Vader was able to Force choke people through images.
     
  15. Gry Sarth

    Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 1999
    If there's one thing this episode showed is that the Force can manifest in more ways than we're used to seeing. If Talzin can us a "Force-voodoo-doll", then Dooku can use the Force in any way he please to fight back the attack. Strangle her apparition, send a force shockwave across the galaxy to her, whatever...
     
  16. cwustudent

    cwustudent Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2011
    If Dooku had this power, then why didn't he use it?

    Forgive me for not having a concrete source, but I think Filoni implied: TCW magick =/= the Force. I know in Courtship of Princess Leia, witches use the Force by way of rituals and spells, but that wasn't George/Katie/Filoni.
     
  17. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    "You who were without mercy now plead for it! I thought you were made of sterner stuff, Megatron." [face_love]


    The biggest problem was indeed the execution, as usual with this show. I'm not hugely surprised over the magic debate but i am surprised people could rate this episode so highly. The letdown in script quality from the undercover arc is shocking to me.

    The one problem I do have when they show the magic is that you would think the Nightsisters would be major galactic players with the magic they possess. But no, they prefer to sit around fires and awkwardly dance; but then again, don't we all?

    Also have to mention that while Asajj's "initiation" as a Nightsister seemed dramatic, the effect was muted when she appeared...exactly the same afterwards.

    Also mention I laughed when that one witch was like "Asajj you know the droids so we have the advantage!". Well, no, actually. They just launched an invasion you didnt expect. You are at a disadvantage, it's simply a benefit that Ventress knows the droids. But thats the least of the problems with the script.
     
  18. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    That's kind of a big thing to put out there with no source. I've never read that.
     
  19. DaRonin

    DaRonin Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2005
    This is why I am ashamed to be a Star Wars fan at times.

    I have to agree with those that the majority of criticisms are pretty baseless. So what if this episode doesn't fit in with Labarynth of Evil, or Obsession? so what If grievous is not as formidable as books like Dark Rendezvous or the micro series made him out to be, or if Dooku was unprepared to fight the sith magic? The EU has so many inconsistencies (depictions of luke and his power levels for one) that saying one depiction of a character doesn't match with another is pretty baseless and petty. The episode itself was... well it was different. I initially burst out laughing at how outrageous the Nightsister Zombies seemed, but they were depicted well and worked with the tone of the episode. I imagine Dooku left behind some hair when he met with Talzin, so the voodoo itself wasn't forced. Just a different way of using the force. Considering Grievous has trouble with Kenobi, its not surprising Ventress would also be a challenge for him considering how much she has grown in power, yet he was pretty cool himself throughout the episode.

    Would it have been plausible for Dooku to defend himself a bit more, sure. Is it plausible he didn't know how to defend himself against this type of attack? Sure. Is it plausible that this is just another use of the force we havn't seen before? sure. It was a good episode. 9/10 for me. If this isn't as entertaining as something else from the eu for you, then go read, watch, or play that. It worked.

    Then again, Im in the minority in thinking that the Boba Fett trilogy from S2 was well done as well. Again, I judge the show against itself, not against other comics, books, shows, movies, or games.
     
  20. Gry Sarth

    Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 1999
    I don't understand why so many people are posting about "don't complain if it doesn't fit the EU" in this thread. I've hardly seen ANYONE here complaining about "breach of EU canon" and whatnot. People are only complaining about stuff feeling out of place, weak dialogue, etc. We've had several episode threads were people were flying the EU flag high, this is not one of them.
     
  21. ArrogantJedi

    ArrogantJedi Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Good episode overall, very enjoyable.

    The battles were well done and this was one of the more violent episodes to date. The Ventress and Grievous battle was short and sweet and I liked how the droids were depicted as mindless but yet can triumph over superior opponents simply as an unstoppable force of sheer numbers. They did this previously quite well when the Droid army defeated Ima-Gun-Di and his clone troops on Ryloth.

    The hocus-pocus magic of Mother Talzin over Dooku I found...may have been a bit much, although, we don't really know that much about her and the extent of her powers. From what we can see it seems she is incredibly powerful - she was able to make Dooku suffer greatly from across the galaxy simply by using a lock of his pubic hair. Perhaps she is the "Mother" of the Mortis Arc? Grievous certainly proved his worth and loyalty to Dooku here ultimately saving his life - I've always wanted to see Grievous lead a legion of droids in a battlefield and this is the best we've seen yet. Hope this isn't the last time.
     
  22. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    I'm not outraged that Dooku didn't fight back, it's just one way in which the episode could have been better. There are others. I still really enjoyed the episode. [face_peace]
     
  23. Gry Sarth

    Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 1999
    Yeah, it was just a bit strange. It made the great sith lord Darth Tyrannus feel very week, if he's so completely vulnerable against the sort of power Talzin possesses, that we don't even see him try to fight back.
     
  24. Sword_Of_Goliath

    Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2010
    What?!?! He struggles with all his might and manages to command Grievous away from a pitched battle to assassinate Talzin. Considering that he's being tortured to death, I'd say that shows a lot of will power!
     
  25. Watto

    Watto Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 1998
    I loved the fact that she was making Dooku suffer. FINALLY, someone on the show was giving it to him! After all the episodes of the Count inflicting pain and suffering on people all over the galaxy, it was awesome to see the witch burst through his chest and force him to experience pain! Very visceral and great payback. I didn't once think about how i thought he should be able to "fight back"... i believe you folks are over-thinking it.

    As far as everything else, great episode. I am really pleased with this new, original direction for Ventress' character, I was bored of the Dark Acolyte path she was following, and the way her story played out in the Obsession comic wasn't great as far as my mileage goes. So, this is great to dealve deeper into what I think is a really great character... and a great voice actress to boot!

    The action was also very visceral and exciting, I for one was rooting for Assaj and her sisters, and seeing them fight back against the droids was awesome. The moves they had them pull off and the angles and visual style of the fight on Dathomir was really envigorating. The zombie nightsisters were just icing on cake, it did remind me of LOTR, but that didn't bother me because i thought it was pulled off better than Peter Jackson's version... these chicks were way cooler and creepier.

    And now Ventress' story continues to unfold... its great to have these storylines that keep us guessing, and offer us something other the same Clones vs. Droids battles we saw earlier in Clone Wars material. Keep it coming, I say...