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TCW Episode The Clone Wars: Episode 419: Massacre Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Barriss_Coffee, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Aug 15, 2011
    That's right. Lumiya could attack Leia and Han from halfway across the galaxy and she was only a Dark Acolyte. Surely Dooku, a fully fledged Sith Lord could defend himself.
  2. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master star 5

    Apr 29, 2011
    Giving the order to Grievous doesn't count as fighting back in my book, I said I wanted him to fight back with the Force. He's being attacked with the Force, and he's one of only two Sith Lords in the galaxy, so he should be able to fight back with the Force. I don't care about his will power, I'm seeing Mother Talzin's crazy Force powers, Darth Tyranus should be fighting back with his own Force powers.

    Seeing Darth Tyranus' body being ripped apart by the Force was one of the best parts of the episode. I think it's one of the coolest Force powers we've seen in TCW. It still would have been a cooler scene if he tried to fight back with the Force.

    Good point.
  3. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy

    ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Feb 25, 2011
    Lol at the last few pages of this thread. "This is why I'm ashamed to be a Star Wars fan", "You know what the problem is?????(sidenote: lol, 5 question marks? Who still does that?) It's you guys", "All you complainers, let's hear your bright ideas please"...these people haven't been smacked in the face with the banhammer but I have. Hilarious. Not to mention Mr Sword_Of_Goliath, what a joker! Makes you wonder why these people even drop into LACWAC if all they ever do is rail on us for not hosting the weekly TCW circlejerk.
  4. 07jonesj

    07jonesj Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 16, 2010
    Yeah, everyone has the right to hate an episode. ESPECIALLY Star Wars fans! They hate because they care. They want Star Wars to be good, to have high quality episodes, books, comics... Again, I loved this episode. But, quite frankly, there are obvious areas of this episode that I knew would rile people up. It's great. If everyone liked the same thing, then we would just get the same episodes again and again. Our diversity creates diversity. Some of us like political episodes. Some of us like huge battles. Some of us like character focused stories.

    We all like Star Wars, just different aspects of it. Don't fight it, embrace it.
  5. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 14, 2004
    Damn, this episode was really silly.

    I liked Ventress, but for the rest... zombies and voodoo dolls? Okaaaaaaaay. [face_talk_hand]

    I was really looking forward to the follow-up on the Dooku/Talzin/Nightsister stuff, but this was just BLEH. [face_frustrated]

    And Fanboy is right, some people in this thread are pretty ridiculous in their intolerance towards us critics. But I guess it's the same old standard LACWAC fare.

    One day, Darth Kowak will have his revenge. [face_skull]
  6. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 18, 2002
    Sweet Zombie Jesus would everybody stop being so dramatic?

    Shocking news: people think their own opinions are more valid than the opinions of others! :eek: :rolleyes:
  7. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 14, 2004
    On the contrary, I think we need more drama.

    Which is an opinion that is superior to yours, of course. [face_skull]
  8. sithreaper

    sithreaper Jedi Youngling star 3

    Oct 8, 2004
    Another great episode
    Random thoughts
    Nice to see the Count is out for revenge, it reminded me of Kenobi?s advice to Hondo way back in season 1; if you cross him he will want revenge.
    Ventress acting nice, could this girl achieve balance and possible spring up as a force ghost.
    The army of the dead looked great, loved the cocoon the dead were hung in.

    I loved Dooku?s defiance against Talzin even in the face of death.

    For all of those people who stated that the Count should have been able to throw off the nightsister voodoo using the force I disagree, the Count was caught unawares to wield the force ?focus? is required, the Count was in agonising pain so he couldn?t focus.

    Great plan by Talzin to get Dooku to call off the attack, Dooku?s knowledge of the nightsisters magic & previously unseen competence from Grievous scuppered the plan.

    As expected Ventress was way too much for Grievous in single combat, realistically only five characters in this series would be able to beat Asajj outright, Grievous on the other hand can?t handle anyone on Master Level.

    I think we need a episode that thoroughly demonstrating the abilities of the Sith (especially Sidious), so far we know the Sith have the same abilities as the jedi plus they can force choke people, use sith lighting and survive some pretty horrendous wounds (decapitation and full body disintegration aside). However these abilities appear rather tame compared to raising an army of the dead, flying, creating an impenetrable force shield, creating items out of thin air, and becoming ethereal.

    No wonder Palpatine feared the night sisters, Talzin is a huge threat to the Sith.

    Grievous was really lethal, he cut a swath through the nightsisters and the undead like they where nothing. I think Grievous is much more suited to crowd fighting then he is to one on one combat.
  9. FarEasterling

    FarEasterling Jedi Knight star 1

    Aug 18, 2011
    If Dooku has not used the Force it means he could not. Say, Talzin repeatedly disrupted his attunement to midichlorians.
    Say, nobody in the galaxy knows (Jedi or Sith) how to shield themselves from the witch channeling. Remember, Talzin all her life worshipped the Twin deities, no less.
  10. Sword_Of_Goliath

    Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Youngling star 3

    Sep 22, 2010
    It's called a discussion. It keeps the thread from becoming a weekly hate-fest. Cheers.
  11. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Nov 6, 2005
    Always occurs here. :p
  12. Billy_Dee_Binks

    Billy_Dee_Binks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 29, 2002
    Finally saw it yesterday. Here are some brief thoughts:

    -What a creepy episode! Those reanimated Nightsisters reminded me way too much of the sucked-dry Vampires from Lifeforce (1985), the only horror movie that genuinely scared me when I first saw it at age 13. [face_worried]

    -Grievous' walking posture was even more hunched over this time. He really slumped down with each step.[face_thinking]

    -Old Daka was a great addition to the Nightsister culture. She felt so much like Palpatine during Anakin's turn to the Dark Side.

    -Not sure how to feel about the Nightsisters being able to reanimate the dead. I think this power should have only been achieved by Darth Plagueis- maybe even just be a myth, or lie created by Palpatine.

    -I liked the voodoo doll idea becoming part of Star Wars. What a painful scene to witness.

    -Asajj's final scene with Mother Talzin abandoning here was perfectly done. The line reading, the way the scene was set up and the music all formed a memorably dramatic scene.=D=

    -The "zombie" Nightsisters, the voodoo torture of Count Dooku, Grievous' victims... I gotta tell you, I think they actually made it a little too dark for a kid's show this time. Somehow I fear this might have consequences later down the road.
  13. DarthVengeant

    DarthVengeant Jedi Master star 3

    Oct 14, 2004
    This was one of the best Clone Wars episodes of all time. If more of them were like this the show would shine fully. This season started out with a few utter flops, but has slowly gotten better. Now, I can only hope the next few episodes that close out the season are just as good as Massacre. Since Darth Maul is coming back, I will wager these will be my favorite CW episodes of all. I eat up all this darkness like candy. It's beautiful.

    MAN, what a great episode. Anything darkside makes my day!!!
  14. Sword_Of_Goliath

    Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Youngling star 3

    Sep 22, 2010
    >>Not sure how to feel about the Nightsisters being able to reanimate the dead. I think this power should have only been achieved by Darth Plagueis- maybe even just be a myth, or lie created by Palpatine.<<

    I don't think they were actually brought back to life, they were like puppets.
  15. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 28, 2009
    I really enjoyed the episode.

    I've accepted that Grievous's skill is not equal to truly skilled duelists like Anakin, Dooku, Yoda, Ventress, etc. but nonetheless this episode depicted him as a truly dangerous adversary in both physical and tactical realms, eviscerating hordes of Daka's conjured undead warriors and crushing the Nightsister resistance.

    But even then, the general performed well against Ventress in their brief duel, landing the first blow. It's entirely possible that, had the fight persisted, he might have won.
    Likewise, I feel that the droid army's portrayal was well done: cannon fodder in certain respects, compared to the ancient magicks at play, but unflinching, unyielding, and without any trace of hesitation. The second the ghouls withered away, the droids opened fire on the remaining Nightsisters in a moment of ruthless opportunity.

    I don't share the complaints of others regarding the mysticism introduced in this arc. The OT depicted the Force as less scientific and more magical; this is simply a reminder that the Star Wars galaxy is one of tremendous scope and scale. Dathomir is host to arcane and unnatural powers that make the planet's occupants formidable in certain respects.

    Dooku's torture at Talzin's hands doesn't undermine the Count's immense power. This episode continued the theme introduced in last year's Nightsister arc: Talzin and the others are powerful, cunning, and dangerous... but they're no match for the Sith in a head-to-head fight. There is a reason that Talzin, for all her immense strength, fled from Grievous. There is a reason that Talzin didn't kill Dooku last year on Dathomir. There is a reason why Ventress and her two cohorts were hopelessly outmatched by an outnumbered and disoriented Dooku. There is a reason why Talzin acquiesced to Obi-Wan and Anakin's demands on Dathomir. Their strength lies more in the realm of rituals and indirect, long-distance attacks. It is there that they have the advantage.

    In the context of a duel, I doubt Talzin would have fared so well.
  16. Sword_Of_Goliath

    Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Youngling star 3

    Sep 22, 2010
    I have issue of TotJ somewhere, and in the letters column someone wrote in that all of the Sith material didn't feel like "real" Star Wars; KJA answered that the Sith material actually came from GL himself. At the time, I took that with a grain of salt; now? I'm more inclined to believe it...
  17. Watto

    Watto Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Dec 13, 1998
    For the record, I think the fact that this episode seems to have the forum split, with folks who either really love it or really hate it, make it an INTERESTING episode at the very least.

    Of course that's my spin on it since I loved it. :p

    Seriously though, I'd rather the show be taking chances like this rather than playing it safe.
  18. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 11, 2011

    Agreed. Heck, I even admire Pursuit Of Peace for its ambition and unusual focus. I loathe Shadow Warrior so much in part because it takes some fairly solid elements - mainstays of the Clone Wars and Prequel eras like Padme/Anakin, Grievous, Dooku vs. Anakin, Naboo, Separatist invasions and Gungans - only to screw them all up.

    No matter how much I felt let down by this episode, I like its ambition. At the very least, I found it interesting.
  19. Anakin_Prime

    Anakin_Prime Jedi Master star 2

    Feb 27, 2005
    I was finally excited to see a episode. I should have known better... I got magic potions, zombies, sorcery, voodoo.... Is this really Star Wars? Not in my book. And to top it off, I got Grievous getting beat (like usual), then he mysteriously turns into a killing machine mowing everyone down like a lawnmower..... How does that happen!?!?!? I wish Grievous gutted her. That would improve my rating some. :D
  20. Billy_Dee_Binks

    Billy_Dee_Binks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 29, 2002
    Oh, and I completely forgot to give credit to give big credit to Grievous, who shined in this episode.
    His skills as a merciless killing machine were another highlight of this episode.
    Kids who are only familiar with the show finally got a glimpse of Grievous' full potential as a dangerous opponent.

  21. Darth__Syphilis

    Darth__Syphilis Jedi Knight star 1

    Nov 26, 2010
    No, you weren't supposed to care. The idea behind the scene, and what the viewer takes away from it, is that Amidala has been targeted and her pursuers are playing for keeps (i.e. trying to kill her). I'm not defending this crappy episode, but you draw a very weak parallel between it and "Clone Wars (The Movie)" [ATTACK OF THE CLONES].
  22. Darth_Zandalor

    Darth_Zandalor Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 2, 2009
    -HURRAY! A Cat Taber character died early!

    -Mother Talzin sounds like someone saying the "In Soviet Russia!" memes. Couldn't stand her voice. Makes my ears hurt.

    -Episode feels rushed, like it should have been put at the end of the Nightsisters trilogy last season. Here it feels more like a conclusion to that arc than the beginning of a new one.

    -FOR GODS SAKES, STOP USING COMMANDO DROIDS AS INFANTRY! They're already cheapened enough as it is, don't make it any worse.

    -Undead Nightsisters are badass. Ventress hopping across Battle Droid heads? Stupid.

    -Voodoo? Seriously?

    -It is my inner lech, but I do like the Nightsisters combat short shorts.

    -Dooku writhing in pain was actually pretty funny. "Grievous, follow the green space poop!"

    -Talzin was pulling off some soul eater stuff there.

    -Grievous once again proves his outstanding combat abilities by defeating an old defenseless woman.

    This episode feels like it should have been with the season 3 parts, and even then, it has some pretty poor pacing. I think it would have been better if the Nightsisters had been given a TV movie style treatment, where these episodes could all be linked together. I feel that on their own, they suffer from moving way too fast, but together, they could make a pretty tight DVD film.

    I also liked the ending. It leaves things open for Ventress. After her soul searching, will she return to Dooku, or continue to wander?

    So this episode is a mixed bag. On one hand, it has some great moments, like the ending and the zombies, but on the other, it is weighed down by baggage from the last season that makes it suffer. I'd say a 6/10, above average, but with some serious problems.
  23. Super_Battle_Droid

    Super_Battle_Droid Jedi Master star 5

    May 8, 2002
    She's no ordinary Grandma, she can summon the dead.
  24. Sword_Of_Goliath

    Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Youngling star 3

    Sep 22, 2010
    "Meme" -- like "archetype" a word we are destined to hear thrown around without regard to its actual meaning, for the rest of our miserable lives :p
  25. vong333

    vong333 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Oct 18, 2003
    No, you got it all wrong, it no problem to not like an episode or complain. It's not, heck we do it on the boards more than we should if you ask me. The real issue is that all this stuff from the Clone Wars movie to almost 4 seasons of clone wars story have not been done with previous novels/comic books/role playing books in mind. It was never a EU thing. This series was done to be part of the movies, everything else is just well, you guys make what you want out of it.

    The reason why I don't get a brown cow over this stuff, is because I don't need any Lucasbooks crony to try and mesh this story with others to tell me this is legitimate canon or not. Cause as many of you are seeing, things are getting a bit out of hand and its going to be very hard to make everything cohesive. Especially with the clone wars. I look at this series as clone wars 2.0. For me, in many ways, the Republic comics, with GT clone wars series and the novels are the 1.0 version of the clone wars and the one that I like most. This is 2.0 stuff, and I won't and wouldn't try to mix these up. I wouldn't, but thats my preference.

    With that in mind, thats why I don't mind too much what they are doing with the exception of bringing Maul back. I can live with the Mortis powers along with Mother Talzin, but this stuff about Maul coming back after being cut in half.