Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 419: Massacre Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Barriss_Coffee, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    How did Grievous do anything of not in this episode? He was a complete clown. He badly managed an initial invasion and got beaten in a duel. When he was lucky enough to see the enemy commander wounded and retreat, he decides to start fighting random enemy foot soldiers. You know, rather than actually leading his own troops. Which, as a general one would think might be important. Nor was there any indication that he would ever have done anything different, were it not for Dooku's command. At that point, he simply repeats Dooku's orders to his army.

    He was only moderately more useful in combat than any other member of his droid army, and had no more strategic value than a commlink.

    Not sure I agree. To be clear, your overall point is well taken. But they lingered on the shot of the decoy dying an awfully long time for someone whom we had only been introduced to a few second before. That, along with the reaction shots to Padme, don't really drive home that the Queen's life is in danger so much as it does seem like an attempt at arm twisting us into sympathy for a total stranger.
  2. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    No, I believe the intent of that scene was to make it clear that Padme Amidala actually gives a damn about the people who die on her behalf. We don't know who Corde is, but we know that Padme knows her well enough to feel shaken by her death. That tells us a lot about Padme. Notably, this is the first time we see the danger of being her bodyguard, not explicitly shown in TPM.

    The Nightsisters... well, I didn't feel inclined to sympathise with them. Much like the Separatist leaders in ROTS, the fact that extreme violence is being used against them is more significant than their actual deaths, simply because they are so depraved in isolation of the Sith. Here, anti-hero/anti-villain Ventress has an emotional stake in the survival of the Nightsister clan, so if we see things from her perspective, we come to sympathise with them to a small extent.

    For me, the problem was that the Nightsisters are too "unreal" in how they're so enamoured with new girl Ventress, to the point of laying their lives down for her, as if they share Talzin's exact opinions. I had the same problem as I had with the Republic Commando books. Between their identical views and lack of moral character when it comes to the Nightbrothers, I simply couldn't sympathise with them.
  3. rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    Ventress is not that "new". Three nightsisters joined her to kill Dooku...AND the only not-previously-seen nightsister that laid down her life for Ventress was Luce. Otherwise, the Nightsisters are defending themselves from attack - not just specifically Ventress.
  4. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    The voodoo doll was stupid because there was no reason for it. So you want to shout out to Indiana Jones, whatever, it doesn't stop it from being completely superfluous.

    Just the lock of hair and the green space poop would have been enough. Having Talzin go all the way from Dathomir to Serenno is already enough of a stretch. And the body explosion looked incredibly cool without the Voodoo doll.

    Also, this is the second time in a row that the Nightsisters have attacked Dooku in his sleep, and instead of killing him outright, they just screw with him.

    Talzin just sorta gave up. "Well, it's over ventress. Fun while it lasted timetomoveonyoumusn'tdwell."
  5. Super_Battle_Droid Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 5
    Dooku wasn't sleeping in Massacre. :p
  6. Seerow SWTV★Mod

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    Nah, Dooku was going over his battle plans and then Boosh! My favorite part of the episode actually was watching Dooku get tortured. With all the pain he caused in the Mon Cala arc and in the Kadavo arc among others. Next time I watch "Escape from Kadavo" or "A Friend in Need". I'm gonna yell "Booyah!" at his holo.
  7. Watto Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 1998
    star 4
    That's exactly what I said, Seerow. It gave me a great deal of satisfaction to see Dooku being tortured. [face_skull]

    And I'd be happy if he was weakened by this and future pain, torture, and torment, which will help facilitate his fall from power in ROTS. [face_whistling]

  8. LukeClone2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    This is all over the place, sorry, I'm venting here, but the short version is I don't like all of Katie Lucas's borrowing from horror/fantasy genres just because vampires/voodo/zombies are popular right now and because Talzin seems more powerful than the Sith.

    --

    My problem with zombies (novels or CW), voodo dolls, witches with incredible mystical powers more powerful than anything shown by the Sith, etc. is that it shows that there's way too much of this Buffy type stuff being thrown in here for two poorly considered reasons. (A) Lucas letting his daughter do whatever she wants in writing episodes for the series. (B) Piggy-backing on the current popularity of zombie films. Neither of these are particularly good reasons for including such elements and neither are particularly good for Star Wars. Let's try to be original here instead of just copying every little cliche from every horror/fantasy film out there. What's next for the series, vampires? What point would that serve? It's not very original and is quite frankly distracting from the larger, more interesting story (Anakin's fall to the dark side). To be fair, I also hate the Rak Ghouls from the EU because they are just shamelessly borrowing from the werewolf genre and they miss the central point of Star Wars: No matter how bad you are, you can still make good and redeem yourself--this is Anakin's story. There is no such option for a Rak Ghoul.

    I know this might fit better elsewhere, but the best part of TPM was Obi Wan killing Maul. At the 3D showing of the film I went to on opening weekend a young boy yelled out "That was awesome!" Indeed, it was, until it didn't mean anything anymore because of Maul's resurrection. To be fair to Lucas, the resurrection of the Emperor in the EU was a horrible idea for similar reasons. What's the point of Anakin's sacrifice if a whole bunch of Emperor clones still exist? It makes it pointless. The resurrection of Maul makes Qui Gon's death and Obi Wan's victory in TPM pointless. For the same reason, the idea that Dooku should be weakened as one poster suggests by the Nighsisters to help explain his downfall in ROTS is a bad one because it would take away from Anakin's accomplishment in finally beating Dooku.

    Another point: If the Nightsisters are so powerful, you saw how Dooku was defenseless, why couldn't they just as easily defeat Sidious? Talzin, is an interesting character, I'll give you that, but she's too powerful as many others have complained. I hope Sidious kills her in the next episode so we can be done with this. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, so in my opinion I'll state that I hope that the Nightsisters (and Maul) are regulated to a smaller role from here on out. Let's stick with some more original in-universe SW characters like Cade Bane, the Zygerrians, or even Death Watch (and yes I love the Karin Travis novels).

    Please guys: not everything in this series has to be an homage to something else!
  9. Watto Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 1998
    star 4
    Just watched again, very effective episode. The action of Nightsisters vs. Droids was thrilling, and the characterization of Ventress continues to get better and better. She's graduated from a one-note villain to a lost soul with much more humanity, and infinite options for story development. =D=

    The most amazing creepy visual of the episode had to be the undead Nightsisters coming to life with the way they animated their corpses, especially their supernatural writhing faces with green mist seeping out. [face_skull] The audio they used for their quickening really added to the overall effect with the bone-crunching sound as they arose, the low pitched growls, and the ungodly screams as they came to life. I was really rooting for the Nightsisters as these reinforcements arrived and they started fighting back against the droids. Contrary to what certain posters were saying, I did have a sympathy for them as they focused on certain characters like the mohawked sister (what a cool design!) who fought really well along side Assaj, and I was really hoping they'd be victorious. To watch them get mowed down at the end did make me sad, and I do wish they could have had a victory after their noble fight. Seeing Assaj reach out to Talzin's spirit in despair, with her fingers passing right through the ethereal witches hands, leaves the episode on a mournful note, but in a really beautiful way. :_|

    Despite the downbeat ending and my wish for more adventures with the Nightsisters, I'm more than willing to go on the journey that the Clone Wars team has set forth for us given the effectiveness of this episode. The commercial that Cartoon Network played afterwards for the next episode looked really fun... and with a disco beat no less! :p (did anyone see that one?) Godspeed Assaj Ventress, and may you bring us more exciting episodes on the Clone Wars... [face_peace]
  10. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    How can Talzin be more powerful, did she fly in the air? Did she shoot bolts of energy like Gwen from Ben 10? Nope
  11. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Summary of this episode:

    Ventress joins nightsisters, separatists attack, Talzin summons zombies, does voodoo on pathetically helpless Lord of the Sith, Grievous kicks the kettle, the end. [face_tired]

    ZOMG AWSUM PERFICK EPZODE ORGAZMZ!!!!11!!1!1! :rolleyes:
  12. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    No need to make fun H_J, I'm not one of them but for some people this was a perfect episode. Everyone has a different type of ideal.
  13. Watto Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 1998
    star 4
    You're distilling it down to the very basics of the story for this episode, Humble. [face_not_talking] These episodes are just stepping stones in the overall story, that's the essence of episodic TV. So they can't all be amazing stories encapsulated.

    Like I said in my review, what I thought worked well were the character development for Ventress and the way they executed the battle and zombie nightsisters. Whatever you thought it lacked in substance, you have to admit it more than made up in style...

    I realize to each his own, if you're not into it, you're not into it...[face_peace]
  14. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Was gonna write a proper summary of my thoughts but then I realised that this episode didn't even make me angry. It was just...devoid of any thrill or enjoyment. It wasn't particularly awful IIRC but it was so unimpressive that it might as well have not have happened. Boring, I guess is the word for it. The magic stuff I don't have an issue with because as Rogue_Follower mentioned a few pages ago it's by no means beyond what goes on in the EU.
  15. Watto Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 1998
    star 4
    Sorry to hear it was not as much of a thrill for you as it was for me, ImNotASWFB. I know how that feels, and it does not make for good Star Wars times...

    I felt that way about the season 1 episode "Tresspass" that a lot of people were really into, but it just left me cold-- no pun intended with the ice planet. [face_whistling]

    Just goes to show you how different fans want different Star Wars.
  16. rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    Your positive comments are appreciated, Humble_Jedi.
  17. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    ^ I appreciate you're rocking that icon I fabricated. [face_beatup]

    I didn't hate the episode, I just thought it was really silly and boring. Said that in the 'grade' topic. Not that anybody should care.
  18. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    <img src="http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb439/aranha1138/Talzin1.jpg">


    <img src="http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb439/aranha1138/Talzin2.jpg">

    Uh....
  19. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Yeah, that was my reaction too. [face_plain]
  20. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    Wow, that is one hell of a snapshot, Gry. Force-attack!!!!!!! [face_skull]
  21. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Gry*
  22. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
  23. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Someone's going to feel the wrath of the Banhammer Weilding Besalisk Mod... [face_whistling]

    Edit: Darn, GG beat me to it.
  24. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    It's the Mod Squad uniform, isn't it? [face_frustrated]
  25. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    I think it's the fact that your name could be abbreviated to G'arth. [face_laugh]