Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 422: Revenge Discussion Thread

Uh yeah, that's my point.
A compelling argument means: compel me with your argument.
You've won when I've been compelled to accept your logic or reconsider my position.

 

"You've won"?! You think we're here to "win" arguments?



...I'm outta here, man.

 

How about:

I've always been OK, how are you?

 

There was enough existential "is it okay for Darth Maul to return?" discussion in the thread reserved for that. I'm disappointed to see that upon a skim it looks like most of this thread is dedicated to that instead of the episode at hand.

I wasn't really thrilled by this episode, but I think that's mostly because a.) I succumbed to spoilers which revealed virtually every plot-point and b.) Brothers was a perfect kind of episode for me and this didn't follow up on it in the same way. I wanted the overt Ep. IV parallels to continue, but I suppose it was inevitable that they cease.

Good episode whose impact was neutered by sky-high expectations. I'll probably get more fun out of it when I watch Nightsisters / Monster / Witches of the Mist / Massacre / Bounty / Brothers / Revenge back-to-back.

Biggest pluses were the selling of Mother Talzin's ability to conjure mechanical legs by showing it in detail and Darth Maul's taunting Obi-Wan about being imbalanced. Also, decapitations were fun and well-used.

 

How 'bout the fact that he escapes the Sarlacc three times...

 

I think only one of them was considered canon, the one in which dengar found him, i think. And it was 3 times?

 

I'm afraid all three instances are canon... in A Barve Like That, in the Marvel comics, and in the Bounty Hunter Wars novels.

 

Another gripe I had with this episode was the apparent no need to call a High Council meeting to discuss a course of action to deal with Maul. Surely the reappearance of a Sith with knowledge of Sidious' identity warrants a meeting of the entire Council. They met to discuss the Mortis beacon and then to plan the disguising of Obi-Wan as Hardeen, yet not to talk about the astonishing survival of a Sith Lord who was bisected, fell down a "fathomless" pit and then turned up to orchestrate a massacre. Bizarre.

 

"Bounty" should have ended with Ventress throwing young Boba into a Sarlac pit.
Then the joke is on us....

 

Believe what you want. I know my convictions, and I'm sticking with them, and I don't have to bring down the entire franchise to the level of this episode to explain it away.

I have the EU to do that for me.

 

In DE we were told that Palpatine learned the ability from Ashka Boda. In a similar way we now know the lineage of Obi-Wan's ability to Force ghost. The difference with Maul is that we've been given no indication that he was trained in any such ability.

 

I really don't want to get drawn into this debate, as far as I am concerned; Sword_of_Goliath is a troll, so stop feeding the troll.

Just a quick note on the topic of Fett's survival. Aside from the fact that its entirely plausible that Fett escaped the Sarlacc, there is this statement on the Wook:
"George Lucas stated in the audio commentary of Return of the Jedi that he added a shot of Boba Fett crawling out of the Sarlacc, which Fett does, stating that the character survived, he managed to blast himself out, killing the Sarlacc in the process."


Sorry guys, please stop calling each other out as trolls. Not helping.

 

Typical Wookieepedia misinformation/distortion/BS.

The actual quote says that he considered it but decided it wouldn't fit. Nothing is said of killing the Sarlacc, which doesn't even happen in EU. Anyone can inspect the newer versions of the film and see that no shot was added.

 

Thank you for summarizing things so succinctly.

In Ep. VI, Palpatine was presented as an evil wizard who ruled the universe and could do pretty much anything he wanted. And then he died a punk's death. The fact that he died is the problem, not the fact that he survived. Dark Empire filled a plot hole and did the franchise a favor by bringing back Palpatine and Fett.

Maul, on the other hand, was presented as a formidable warrior who died a warrior's death. And because he had too cool a look not to tempt EU authors to bring him back, Lucas, just to make sure, had him fall down a bottomless pit.

And then he brings him back in order to help the ratings of a cartoon show, dragging his appearance out over at least three seasons, and the writers don't even put on their dress blues for it. Could the majority of fans have accepted Maul's return just like they accepted Palpatine's and Fett's, despite the circumstances of his onscreen death? I believe that they could have, had it been done right. The SW universe is indeed full of implausibilities, and there are ways to properly sell an implausibility.

Instead, no explanation is given on his survival, no matter how implausible, the whole return is enveloped in green magical mist and expressed in the worst dialogue since Paul and Hollace Davids, and we're supposed to swallow it.

 

This. And as far as believability goes, his escape doesn't have any. Yes, the Sarlacc doesn't kill immediately, but that doesn't make his escape any more possible. Specially the way it's portrayed now with the beak.

 

Sure, that's why you kept countering all of my...arguments...with...counter-arguments...to, uh, share your insights.

Silly me.

Oh, and shut the door on your way out, you're letting all the AC out...


Last part is just going too far, Goliath. Everyone has been warned several times in this thread.

 

AC?

Ah, now I see why you stopped countering my arguments.

But what constitutes a 'compelling' argument is a matter of... opinion!

 

Air conditioning.

 

I can see Fett getting out, but I'm glad Lucas didn't insert such a scene, because it would be useless without the reappearance of the character after his emergence. In Jabba's hundreds (or however many years) of sending people into the Pit of Carkoon, he was sending in unarmed prisoners. And the animal would have evolved to eat things like Banthas and Dewbacks, not to being fed like a pet. It's possible, if not probable, that the resistance that Luke, Han, Chewie, Lando, and Leia posed was the first time anything like that had ever happened. Thus Boba Fett: with his armor, jetpack, and assortment of weapons was probably the only person to ever fall into the pit with such armament.

Palpatine having a clone body and reappearing is just ridiculous and I'll never accept that. Nor will I accept things like characters using the Force to make supernovas or whatever characters like Sadow and Palpatine can do in the EU. In the battle of the "wizards" between Yoda and Sidious, that seemed like the extent to which we had ever seen the Force pushed in the films, and I'd imagine that if these two characters were really fighting to determine the fate of the galaxy, they would have done everything in their power to win. If Palpatine can do all this super-uber-mega stuff in the EU, then why didn't he do it when it mattered?

As for Maul. I'm on the fence. I mean, hypothetically, had he re-discovered Plagueis' power, it wouldn't have translated any better into dialogue than what we got. And we'd still be clamoring as though we never got an explanation. In that case, I think it's a double standard to reject Maul but be OK with the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis. Because IMO it just seems like the tale of Plagueis is OK, but once you try to actually portray such a power, it will always come across as cheesy.

E.G. it wouldn't have worked any better if Maul had said:

"I survived because I gave myself over to the Dark Side and found that it offered the power to keep myself alive. I could sustain the midichlorians on the raw power of the Dark Side, and they keept my cells alive."

So Maul saying that he survived because of his hatred for Obi-Wan is scarcely different in my mind than what Palpatine says about Plagueis. But what I do have a problem with, is the idea that it's not Maul that fashions himself Spider legs, but that the Dark Side just does it for him. That his hatred is so strong that stuff starts sticking to him and for whatever reason shapes itself into spider-legs. Also I can understand the complaint as to why Maul is capable of such an ability but Vader is not, when Vader is the Chosen One. OOU it undermines Vader when they give such an ability to some character from TPM who hardly said anything and really wasn't significant in the big picture. But IU, Maul could be a genius Force user, we just never got to see enough of the guy to know.

 

Not having read any EU on the subject of Plagueis, I always thought that the tale about Plagueis could just as well be something Palpatine made up, just to manipulate Anakin.

 

It's called a discussion. As in "discussion forum".

 

Ezio does not agree.

 

You keep using words in ways, that erm, aren't really correct.

Most of the things you described do not meet that definition. A flying whale certainly does not. There are many possible explanations: the gravity is lighter on Kamino, the creature has some sort of air bladders to maintain buoyancy, it is lightweight with hollow bones, it was riding on a thermal, etc. Any or all of these could work. More importantly, though, understanding whether something could or could not fly takes a pretty advanced understanding of physic, both as it relates to the creature in question and the world on which it is attempted. Nothing is "obvious" about it.

Likewise, as we just reviewed, plenty of people don't even know that there is no sound in space. It requires more of a dedicated education in physics than a good fraction of the population ever receives. It's far from something anyone would notice. By contrast any adult would expect that cutting someone in half would kill them. It can't be missed, no matter what you're level of education, or even how much scrutiny your applying to the movie. It will pretty much always register. It is, in other words, legitimately obvious.

Before this round of non-factual statements, you claimed it was just as hard to imagine Luke hanging on to an antenna with both arms and legs as it was for Darth Maul to survive getting cut in half. Even though no medical professional of any kind, be they doctor, nurse, dentist, or ambulance driver, would ever agree with you. You said people survive Darth Maul's level of injuries (getting cut in half above the waist) "all the time" even though they don't.

You aren't actually making counter-arguments. You're just inserting the words we use in our post into your own. That doesn't work if you can't substantively parallel the point. Do you want to defend any of this stuff you are saying? Otherwise, I can just start making up things to support my position, too.