Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 422: Revenge Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Barriss_Coffee, Mar 11, 2012.

  1. AhsokaMiro Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2008
    star 3
    I'm gonna go a whole different route with this because I view the whole arc differently.

    The last four episodes are considered an "arc" by the show's creators. If you look at it that way, and I do, the story isn't about Maul at all... it's about Ventress. She's the only character to appear in all four parts (albeit briefly in the third) and she provides the key to the climax... beside which, the main drive, story-wise, is that she undergoes character development to the extent that by the final episode she makes choices and takes actions that she would not have done in the first, or ever before.

    Looked at that way, Maul is sort of just the "superweapon of the week" and could be easily replaced by any other plot device. That's an overstatement, of course: a great deal of narrative time and exposition (to say nothing of OOU hype and hoopla) went into establishing that Maul is back and positioning him as a major player in the show. But really, the main thing he does for the story is the ensure that Obi-Wan is drawn out at the same time that Ventress tracks down Savage. The brothers are essentially there to engineer Ventress and Obi-Wan hooking up now that she's changed a bit.

    For the record I find Maul's resurrection pretty dumb, but I'm not that interested in an endless discussion of it because it's happened, and no amount of carping about it will undo it. What they've done and will do with the character is another thing... if it had been thoroughly awful maybe I would've been done with the show. But as it stands we have the potential for an interesting new faction in the war (the brothers would be stupid not to totally mobilize the Nightbrother clan, right?) and what strikes me as a very interesting new lease on life for Ventress, who's been one of my favorite characters from the start. So I'm still in.
  2. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Thank you - the last page or two of posts have added nothing to the discussion (IMHO) and has bored me to not taking part in it.

    Maul is here, good or bad idea. It's time to talk execution of the idea (IMHO).

    Edited in response to comment: I should have said "bickering" over the execution, me bad. So far there's a lot of potshots back and forth across each other's bow. Discuss away...
  3. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    I was actually under the impression that the execution of the idea was the main point of contention, not the idea itself.
  4. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I did not like how Sidious didn't get anything but a passing mention by Maul. However, Maul does acknowledge that Sidious is the most powerful being the galaxy, or at least in Maul's eyes (I'm still eagerly awaiting Talzin's development in the whole thing). I don't see how Maul, after spending the past 10 years in insanity, can go toe-to-toe with Sidious when he also acknowledges that a lot has changed. There was no time in which he was trying to figure things out, no questioning Savage, no interaction with Talzin (who conspicuously slips away as soon as Maul regains consciousness).

    Yet Maul has a plan for dealing with the Jedi (when did he find the time to break himself away from his insane ramblings to come up with one?), and rather than trying to ally with Sidious and become his apprentice once more, he decides to stand alone when he has no idea what's going on, has no army, is a liability to Sidious if he's not going to work with him, etc.

    I'm curious to see how that all plays out. Talzin has helped Asajj, Maul, and Savage, yet doesn't seem to care that Maul and Savage are at war with Asajj. She gave no further instruction to Savage before slipping away. What threat Maul and Savage can possibly pose to the armies of the Republic and CIS, I'm curious to see. Obviously he knows about the Clone War and can threaten Sidious by leaking information to his enemies, notably Talzin (we know that the Republic can't find out the real deal behind Palpatine until ROTS).

    There's so much they can do, but my concern is that they are introducing too much without even beginning to tie anything together.
  5. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I think I would have much preferred a Maul who fled to some ancient, long-forgotten, whatever, Sith stronghold where he worked on evil Sith powers and trained to take revenge.

    As I had posted several pages back, it's hard enough to suspend disbelief that Maul survived at all. Now we're supposed to believe it was solely his Dark Side hatred that kept him alive, and no particular skill. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

    Then, without knowing anything at all about what is happening in the galaxy, any training, any practice with a lightsaber IN TEN YEARS, he's good to go.

    Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

    Like I said, TCW consistently shows me that there is no way the Jedi could ever defeat any Sith ever.

    Still, it could be worse:

    <img src="http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/268/267/d63.jpg">
  6. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I agree with Starkiller. What we have been debating is not whether Maul should have survived. It's whether "my hate kept me alive" was a reasonable amount of explanation given what happened to him.

    As for my other thoughts about the episode. . .

    Basically this.

    That's why I think it was so poorly done. I don't mind bringing Maul back if they justify it well, and do it for a purpose. As it was, though, they don't seem to have thought through anything. Neither an explanation for his survival, nor the implications of Darth Maul in particular having survived. He could have been any generic lightsaber-wielding bad guy, and I don't see how it would have made a bit of difference.
  7. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Fixed. ;)
  8. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    This thread is funny.

    I don't have a problem with Darth Maul's voice. In fact, I love it.
    I don't have a problem with Darth Maul's spider legs. Darkside = unnatural things.
    I don't have a problem with Darth Maul's new legs. Mechu-Deru, do we reall get it?
    I don't have a problem with Darth Maul being a total badass w/ his old lightsaber. Sidious made it so.
    I don't have a problem with Darth Maul taunting/kicking the crap out of Obi-Wan. It worked for me.

    I still have a problem with Savage Opress doing anything with a lightsaber.

    Let alone when fighting against a Jedi Master. I tolerated his introduction and how he escaped from Anakin/Kenobi/Ventress et all. They had to sell the character to us somehow. But at the end of the day, Dooku gave the dude what, one lesson? He's been handling them for.... MAYBE six months of his life? Of all the eye-roll-inducing things that this show has asked of me, THAT is what irritates me the most. I was hoping they'd kill Savage, but I'm a fool for thinking that because two-Mauls are easier to profit off of, than one.

    Forget bashing the original Iridonian-warrior, its his yellow brother who is the Gary Stu of this series.

    ***

    PS Disclaimer:
    Not touching Darth Maul's survival, he isn't dead and that's just the way it is.[face_plain]
  9. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    That's nothing. It all pales next to a single second, a few frames at most: A bisection at the waist, 11 years' worth of mental trauma, and complete lack of clothing were fixed in a second by a plot forwarding implement masquerading as a character! That second, where Maul just goes -- POOF! and is transformed from traumatized mess to cool super-fighter, was so insulting I could not believe they did it. But there it was. And then Talzin disappeared into thin air.

    It still baffles me to no end how people can just accept that.

    Is this what writing for this franchise has come down to? INT. COOL-LOOKING PLACE - Cool-looking witch #1 makes character cool-looking (henceforth known as cool-looking character #1). EXT - COOL-LOOKING PLACE - Cool-looking character #1 gets in light saber fight with cool-looking character #2, and then cool-looking character's brother (looks the same, only more cool-looking and with a more cool-looking lazersword) joins in. Fight ends in a draw so that there can be rematches spread out across the coming seasons. The end.

    I would accept that and just stop bothering with SW if this trash was the norm. Contrary to what some have claimed here, I don't see anything as offensive to my intelligence anywhere in this franchise. Bring back Paul and Hollace Davids, for God's sake!
  10. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Eh, I don't understand. All thread long, I've been discussing the things that I thought were ridiculous in this episode. I'm way past the ZOMG MAUL IS ALIVE stage. Ah well, can't expect people to read entire threads. I know I don't.

    Also, is it just me or does it seem like the Banhammer is mightier than the Sword? [face_laugh] [face_skull] (Cheap shot, I know, I know :p)

    In all seriousness, and just to flatter myself, I'll try to bring up once more a point I made several pages back, that everybody ignored:

    To me, the fact that Yoda tells Obi-Wan to 'finish what he started', seems to indicate that the TCW team is really losing sight of what they're doing and what this all is about. In my opinion, what should matter is that Maul is their link to the identity of the Dark Lord of the Sith. But noooooo, it's all about OW killing Maul (again).
  11. rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    This thread is about releasing your anger. It's about letting the hate flooooowwwww through you.
  12. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    No no, this thread is about how crap is great! I just learned that from someone.

    Again, not helping. Everything was settling down, we don't need comments like this to keep it going.
  13. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    So much for discussion, then.

    :p
  14. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Garth, I think my respect for you just multiplied a thousand times. A million if you've actually played the games and are getting in on the RetakeME3 movement.
  15. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    OH, I quite agree (can I do the "Obi-Wan beard stroke" here, even if I'm female [face_thinking] [face_laugh] )? - and darn, I have a customer here & must run although my post is incomplete (plus it's my lunch hour in 2 minutes)

    Edit because I'm back and still officially "at lunch."

    The whole Yoda "Must send Obi-Wan to finish what he started..." plus the whole he'll have someone to help him - hopefully that is explained next season. Obi-Wan did not (has not yet) finished what he started, and Ventress did not help him achieve it since nothing was achieved except some hair-movement and knock-Kenobi-senseless.

    If ultimately this makes sense, okay, but given TCW's history with Obi-Wan, loose ends, and consequences...I have no idea what Yoda thought, or thought the Force was saying, in regards to this.

    Maybe the "payoff" [face_talk_hand] is the Council deciding Obi-Wan isn't the Jedi he was thought to be and assigning him a nursemaid. (Do I sound bitter? Regardless of intent, over the years I see this slow chipping away of Obi-Wan's reputation as a good Jedi; an ever growing segment of fans who are coming to believe he is relatively incompetent and in need of hand-holding to survive. :mad: )
  16. episodenone Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 4
    Normally - I would totally agree with that point.

    However - giving it a few minutes of thought -- when in the PT do the Jedi ever really try and capture a Sith? In nearly every encounter - the goal seems to be "kill at all costs and the threat is eliminated" as if the Force's balance solely relies on whether or not a single Sith is alive.

    All the Jedi try and do is kill whatever Sith they encounter -- which is to say that there never seems to be a legitimate attempt to trap or ensnare them. Which can be done... Obi-Wan gets caught in that Energy bracelet prison in AOTC.

    It isn't until Luke that a Jedi actually chooses to not attempt to kill a Sith - even if it's his pops.

    And look what happened there...

    While you are totally right that "Against Yoda's Judgement" he'll send Obi to "finish what he's started" -- that stupid quote by Yoda says it all. "Destroy the Sith, we must"

    Why the heck wouldn;t the Jedi -- with masters available -- not send Mace, Yoda, whoever with OW to CAPTURE AND INTERROGATE Maul?

    Instead of somehow OW to verify the identity of and then kill a Sith lord??

    My point? It fits with everything else we have seen about the PT Jedi. Could Filoni and crew actually be writing it like this this for that reason?

  17. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    There are two ways this episode made Darth Maul's survival satisfactory. Brothers only went part of the way to a satisfactory explanation by showing he hadn't survived intact but rather barely survived in a severely physically and mentally damaged state.

    1.) It's somewhat up to interpretation in my view. Darth Maul says twice that his hatred kept him alive, but that really only means he used the Force if you want it to. I think it's notable he used the hatred line twice but never mentioned the Force. Of course, one could argue that since hatred fuels the Dark Side that there's no distinction, but that just adds a third possible interpretation.

    2.) I didn't pick this up from Brothers alone, but this episode made it obvious that Darth Maul's spider-legs were barely functional. I thought it would be way too much to imply that Darth Maul had the technical knowledge to create them himself, I thought they would need another explanation, but having him stumbling all over the place and seeing that the thorax was really just a patchwork of random parts barely holding together really sold the idea that he could have done that himself. Similarly, if they just told us Mother Talzin created Darth Maul's bipedal legs without showing it, I think that would have been too much. She's a witch, not an engineer. But they showed it in such detail that I had to believe it. Partially organic and presumably tied directly to nerve endings, with metal casings that were melted together and molded with the Force. It's hard to disbelieve it when they show exactly how it's done.
  18. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    The PT Jedi repeatedly try to capture Sith. It's the first thing Mace Windu does when he has surrounded Dooku on Geonosis. When Yoda arrived with the Clone troopers, it didn't much seem like he was trying to use lethal force either. Then, after discovering Palpatine is a Sith, they again send a delegation to try and arrest him. In fact, the only Sith they didn't treat this way was Darth Maul, and that's because the only two Jedi that knew of his existence were desperately fighting for their lives in a duel that he started (and mostly won).
  19. episodenone Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 4
    Not gonna argue that - but there are certainly more places where the Jedi are obviously looking to Kill Sith - and not capture them.

    It's quite obvious when they do want to Kill the Sith -- while it's not so clear in say, Yoda and Dooku's duel that Yoda was not prepared to use lethal force if Dooku doesn't make a run for it.
  20. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    You're... not... serious, are you?
  21. episodenone Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 4
    i thought it was meant to be clear that the Nightsisters are using something other than the Force?
  22. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    See, I thought it was meant to be clear that it was a senseless attack against my brain cells....
  23. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    With Talzin it's just annoying that there doesn't seem to be anything she can't do. I mean she starts reciting some kind of spell and then a new pair of legs magically get constructed from fallen super battle droids. Might as well just be like one of those "we have an app for that" commercials: Need new legs? There's a spell for that.

    Voodoo dolls, turning into green mist to avoid laser blasts, curing someone's insanity, enhancing Savage with magic steroids, creating a stealth screen for Asajj during her attack on Dooku, creating a force field and shooting energy blasts from her hands, raising an army from the dead (she didn't do this, but it's still a product of Nightsister magic), opening up magical doorways...

    With the character of Talzin, while I think she can make an interesting character, it pretty much puts the Sith to shame. If the Sith are all about achieving power, then it seems like they're studying the wrong teachings.
  24. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Not to mention her magic galaxy-wide radar from last episode. That was so weird, she conjures up some smoke, and then we have some radar blips pinpointing the location of Savage. Guess the Nightsisters are really cyber-witches.
  25. godisawesome Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2010
    star 1
    We've got the whole "green mist" = "Force enhancer that the Nightsisters can manipulate in unique ways" explanation from the TCW crew, and I agree with the idea that Maul and Talzin are both using variations of Mechu-deru.

    The ancient Sith used it to create bio-mechanical zombies who could act as an independent army, answering only to there master.

    Maul was going through grievous injuries, to his body and his pride, when he tried to use it and succeeded only in a temporary stop gap. We know he's used the technique before when he somehow crammed a small army's worth of weaponry into C3-PX, so I like the idea he was competent enough to make the spider-body, and I like just how grotesque it is, since it matches his mental state.

    Talzin's use of it looked awesome, was a good way to consolidate Maul's recovery into one short scene, and drew a nice parallel with Savaage's force steroids. (Incidentally, I think this means that both Maul and Oppress should count as sithspawn now that both have been radically changed by the dark side.) Now, the downside to the scene is the way it compares to Vader's rebuilding, but I'm okay with that since Maul was already stable and they're only replacing the bottom half of his body and didn't have Palpatine overseeing the situation, able to handicap his apprentice however he decided.

    And I like having Maul return. I'm a DC Comics fan, so I'm not quite as desensitized to character death as a Marvel fan but I'll still read it if it looks good. And Maul's return looks good to me, and we already had one resurrection story taken as canon in the EU. Maul has Ray Park's face, awesome facial expressions, a menacing voice, and enough potential left to be a game changer. Now Maul, Savaage, Talzin, and Death Watch are all arrayed against both, and the only problem I have with it is we probably won't have a quick follow-up with this series' messed up order.