TCW Episode The Clone Wars - Episode 5.1 - Revival - discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Seerow, Sep 24, 2012.

  1. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    That is true, but also not relevant to the matter at hand. The prequels came out years ago, and once they did the principle of canon 'levels' was firmly established. That this situation exists, and the inherent problems and difficulties of continuity across sources it creates are an issue of the Star Wars universe as a whole. They are not something TCW invented and they are not TCW's or Filoni's fault.

    If you think that Timothy Zahn, or Michael Stackpole, or Troy Denning, or John Ostrander, or Kevin J. Anderson, or any other major creative personage in Star Wars would not take a hatchet to massive chunks of the EU if they were suddenly given the complete and total power to do so you're kidding yourself. Go take a look at some of the AU stories floating around down in the fanfiction forum if you need evidence. Heck, speaking only for myself, if I swapped bodies with George Lucas the Yuuzhan Vong would vanish from Star Wars so fast it'd give Del Rey whiplash.

    There is not a soul on this Earth who loves anything and everything within the vastness of the Star Wars EU, it's just too big and encompasses way too many contradictions for that. The shared universe pact that everyone writing C-canon is obligated to follow is basically a giant treaty to agree to disagree and to save massive interpretation differences of events and concepts to insinuation, assumption, and subtext. George Lucas is not bound by that EU-pact, and insofar as C-canon sources are concerned neither is TCW's creative team. If you think that privilege was undeserved, fine, that's a totally valid argument, but said privilege having been conferred, we can't compare the choices of TCW to those of a C-canon creator.

    In the general sense yes, I agree that it is not a good idea to retroactively eliminate a source from canon, it is something to be done only with great care, but sometimes it becomes impossible to simply fudge the facts together anymore and you have to pick either option A or option B. I think, in the specific case of Obsession, that point has been reached. I simply do not see any reasonable way to square the circle of those events with the ones in TCW at this time without totally destroying the development of Asajj Ventress in both sources, which would render everything meaningless. The clean solution seems to be obvious: place an Infinities label over Obsession and label it non-canon. I don't enjoy suggesting this, I really liked that comic and even at one point began a fan-fiction based off its events, but that seems to be where we stand.

    My point earlier was this: If Obsession is an Infinities title, then the death of Adi Gallia in TCW S5E01, Revival is not a continuity error any more.
    KeltheDor and AkashKedavra_93 like this.
  2. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Perhaps we can. I just hate it on any forum when someone does those effing meticulous "pick apart every single line and explain why you disagree" responses.
  3. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    @Mechalich :

    There is not a soul on this Earth who loves anything and everything within the vastness of the Star Wars EU, it's just too big and encompasses way too many contradictions for that. The shared universe pact that everyone writing C-canon is obligated to follow is basically a giant treaty to agree to disagree and to save massive interpretation differences of events and concepts to insinuation, assumption, and subtext. George Lucas is not bound by that EU-pact, and insofar as C-canon sources are concerned neither is TCW's creative team. If you think that privilege was undeserved, fine, that's a totally valid argument, but said privilege having been conferred, we can't compare the choices of TCW to those of a C-canon creator.

    I agree with this; and if I were given free reign, ROTS would look very different (and I've written some of those fan fiction forum AUs to prove it ;) ). However, I also understand why people feel that some of TCW plots seemed like nothing more than giving a big "**** you" to some of the EU writers and fans. Adi Gallia's death is an example. So, Filoni and Co. wanted to make Maul and Randy look like badasses. As others have mentioned, was it necessary that Adi be the Jedi that they killed? Wouldn't killing another Jedi make them look just as badass?

    I think it was probably inevitable that TCW and the EU contradict each other some, as the PT some of the early 90s EU already contradict each other. However, it does seem that Filoni and Co. go out of their way to hunt for EU sources to contradict, as opposed to "Oops, I didn't realize that this character or plot point was already covered, my bad."
  4. rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    Absolutely loved this episode except for Adi Gallia being killed off. Her death was completely needless. (But perhaps the senselessness of her death makes it more tragic...hmmmm...)
    (side note: TCW continues its steamrolling of canon. LOL. But it is GL's universe to do whatever he wants.)
    + Graphics for this latest season only get better.
    + Fantastic lightsaber battle choreography.
    + Obi-Wan shows why he's bested the best of the Sith. Finally he kicks some butt rather than taking another butt-kicking.
    + Hondo is brilliant! The perfect dastardly pirate!
    A great start to the new season and certainly bodes well for future episodes. I can't wait for the next one!
  5. EHT Manager: New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    I liked this episode the best of all the Maul episodes so far by a wide margin, but the ironic thing is that I also thought that Maul and Savage basically came across as chumps (other than killing Adi). Their plans (convoluted plans at that) floundered, the pirates they enlisted quickly turned back on them, they got beaten up, and then they ran... literally ran, one of them without an arm carrying the other one without a leg. [face_laugh] I thought the stand out appearances of the episode were Obi-Wan, Hondo (he was great), and Hondo's monkey lizard.
  6. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I love just about everything, except works that just aren't of particular interest to me, until the post-NJO was ruined by the Denningverse and TCW redid the Clone Wars. I genuinely believe the Denningverse is bad story telling because it's a rehash of the PT that largely ignores the NJO. Most of those authors have tremendous respect for the universe, and do their own thing and do it well. Sorry to disappoint you, but I expect integrity and respect other people's work from the people who come up the stories.
  7. KeltheDor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2011
    star 1
    Again, why the scapegoat blame fest? Troy Denning didn't create FOTJ or LOTF by himself. He did so with three other authors and writing board that had just as much input into the direction of the storytelling. You can blame Denning for poor handling of his own books, but any major universe changes weren't directly his fault because again he was part of a larger team.

    Same thing goes for Filoni ,or Christian Taylor, or pretty much anyone involved with TCW.
    Last edited by KeltheDor, Sep 30, 2012
  8. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    I see that we have the usual complainers, new season, same haters, and bashers of the clone wars. Heck, wait till season 6. Then some of you guys will go off the deep end.
    Last edited by vong333, Sep 30, 2012
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  9. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Agree with you, don't know why people that hate TCW come on to this section of the board
    Last edited by Darth Vader, Sep 30, 2012
  10. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I love Aaron Allston's work with the X-wing series too much to associate him with that train wreck and he is the only one who even cared about the Second Galactic Civil War. I love Karen Traviss's work with the Republic Commando series and her contributions could have easily been turned into a side story. I don't know what to think about Christie Golden. I know Troy Denning isn't the only one at fault, but his contributions are a big reason why I don't like it.
    Because TCW is destroying everything I like about the Clone Wars. I have no interest in TCW, but somehow I am supposed to accept it in order to enjoy the Clone Wars of the future.
  11. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Because Star Wars is just as much theirs as yours. Because some people still try to find the good amongst the bad. Because some people wish the bad were better. And because some people prefer to keep apprised of the latest screw-ups, rather than be sucker-punched.

    Troy Denning has been found to be responsible for several of the more questionable creative decisions made within the two series, some by his own admission.
    Zeta1127 likes this.
  12. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    I see that we have the usual gushers, new season, same mocking pro TCWers, and biased praise givers of the clone wars. Heck, wait till season six. Then some of you guys will go off the deep end in your vendetta against negativity.
  13. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Because we have as much right as you do. The difference being that we don't tell you guys to piss off whenever we disagree.
    CT-867-5309, K'Kruhk, JackG and 5 others like this.
  14. LordMortis315 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Oh God, not this again... :oops:
    QuangoFett and cwustudent like this.
  15. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Guys why do we have to go through this time and again?

    Sniping stops now or bans are coming.
    KenobiSkywalker likes this.
  16. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Sorry Garth Maul, Sniping stops now for me
  17. Yodaminch Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    I personally don't hate the show. However, I want to see it reach its full potential and when it makes missteps like this and they are avoidable, I will call them out on it. And when they produce lazy or uncreative work, I will call them out on it. Compared to the show that aired an hour later, Young Justice, this episode was not at all impressive. Young Justice has manged to weave a better continuity than the entire DC comic universe has at the moment and they still manage to avoid stepping on toes while telling a compelling and action packed story. Clone Wars could learn a few things from their style. For example, the way they are able to tell many stories over one long story arc. That's not to say Clone Wars is a bad show. It's perfectly entertaining. But it could be so much better.
    Last edited by yodaminch, Sep 30, 2012
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  18. Samayel_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2012
    star 2
    i really liked the episode, i think i will miss the Maul´s visionaries legs, i think that are cooler than the new legs taht appears in the trailer and sneak peak.
    Hondo was brilliant in this episode, nobody dares to shot a sith lord, and nobody HURT a sith lord, with a blaster.
    But there´s a detail that i still don´t digest, i mean, forgetting obsession?, forgetting maybe the last appareance of the "true" Grievous and forgetting maybe one of the biggest apparreances of Durge?....that also means that the part where Quinlan Vos and Villie where they talk about the death of Durge in "The Hidden Enemy" is also non-canon?.
    I really hope that Leeland Chee clean this mess and eventually we can see Adi Gallia floating in some Bacta tank, don´t forget that he was able to revive Gardulla after being EATEN.
    i only have two more words to add.

    Show Spoiler
    BOZ PITY
  19. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    No, no, that's still canon. Basically, according to what Chee's implied, Obsession only starts to lose it at Boz Pity. Anakin and Obi-Wan's battle with Durge aboard the derelict ship is still canon, as is Durge's death, so Quin's chat with Villie is still all clear.
  20. Samayel_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2012
    star 2
    sorry, i wasn´t conected for the last 2 days, so i´m still not fully updated, where Leeland Chee said that?
  21. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    He was asked on his Facebook page, and responded that everything with Durge was still canon, while a "broad strokes" approach would be taken toward the Battle of Boz Pity, at the moment. You can see for yourself here.
    Samayel_ likes this.
  22. KED12345 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2012
    star 4
    Well I guess this whole episode really did cost Maul and Savage.
    *puts on sunglasses*
    An arm and a leg.
  23. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Finally watching the episode.


    - Security droids that aren't annoying, wish the typical battle droids were like this.

    - Maul is like Pistorius, eh?

    - wonder if Savage is like "well, he didn't zap me" :p

    - something bothers me about Maul's face

    - Hondo looks great

    "I am semi-speechless" lol

    Wow Kenobi is a badass!!!

    Why did Maul's roboleg leak Nightsister smoke?

    Wow that "petty crooks" line was terrible ADR

    Yoda shut up you idiot. Personal matter. Okay.
    AkashKedavra_93 and DavidIX like this.
  24. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    :oops:

    Also, talking about Chee quotes, this is relevant as well:
    [IMG]
    Last edited by Todd the Jedi, Sep 30, 2012
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  25. KED12345 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2012
    star 4
    Feel free to beat me for that one ;)