Full Series The Clone Wars - Episode 5.4 - The Soft War - discussion thread

To each their own. I still think Anakin was the ice-cold one during that fight.

 

Anakin never was icecold in his life. He always acted with passion and barely could control his anger. Later as Darth Vader in the lifesuit he was forced to be icecold, control himself better. Be more clever. Not hot headed. The suit cut him off from the outer world. It was like he was in a other world than the rest of the population. He had to learn to be cold after that hellfire he went through. He was vulnerable like a new born baby without the suit.

 

Yep. Cold fury... had he let loose, Kenobi would have been dead.

 

Beg to disagree.

 

In that case its possible there was never any proxy or Rash himself could have appeared 3rd party with Mina backing him believing in the C.I.S. We do kinda have a timeline now that I think about it since Mina's husband would have been killed almost a year before HOBS took place. Mina could have started out neutral and Mr. Bonteri's death at the hands of clones swayed her. This would handily explain the lack of ill will. It still makes the line "Your mother would be proud" sound awkward though. "Congrats your both ideas who continuously get duped. C.I.S. and Deathwatch." Dendup could certainly appear cowardly as he is apparently indecisive and seemed to just want to stay out of everything until he learned the Jedi were involved. One could say that Dendup is really like that to prevent fighting and innocents from dying. He was trying to drive Saw away from getting caught. I guess the Jedi backing him built up his confidence.

 

Maybe the writers have read your post and taken notes.

 

Of course you can, but i think his look had a barely note of pittyfullness and nothing more for a guy which he named as "His Brother" and that he claimed to love. He didnt even gave Anakin a lousy feeling like hate or anything. He just walked away and let him burn alive! I would not do that even to my worst enemy.

 

I'm surprised no one has started joking about Savage and Maul's infamous 'brother' lines with Steela and saw.

Normally I'm cool with the lack of direct call outs in TCW but this is one of the most glaring times there should have been one. There should have been just the slightest mention of HOBS.

 

Then kudos to you for rising above your shock and horror and doing the compassionate thing. Whether it was the best thing to do or not, it was a human thing for Obi-Wan to do and force I pity that man for being in that situation. Personally, I would have thought Anakin would be dead before I could barely lift a finger and what could I have done to tend such horrible burns etc. and probably sadly walked away myself in horror and shock.

But hopefully I'll NEVER be in a situation like that to find out what in real life I would really do.

 

Shock Horror? Obi Wan?

The man which cuts Sith Lords in half, shots Droid/Cyborg generals with blasters, Cuts off peoples limbs without hesitation (Cantina ANH, AOTC , Asharad hett etc..) should fear simple flames? He could have used the force to pull Anakin out of that fire. Anakin was no threat anymore. He was defeated and needed help. Even the worst enemy would reach a helping hand. I could not watch anyone burning alive which reaches me his hand to save him (Like Anakin did to Obi Wan). I just saw Obi Wans wish to destroy this new man called vader. He wanted to wipe out Anakin from the existence and his own FAILURE with this Apprentice of him. Obi Wan was very selfish in that last moment. He claimed that its his fault before in the middle of the fight, he distractet Vader and than he kicked him away like trash. Fooled him.

If its your fault Obi Wan like you claimed, than why dont you help that guy which was missleaded and bad trained from you? I also think Obi Wan never liked Anakin, he was forced from qui gon into this. the only reason why kenobi showed patience all that years was the hope of Anakin beeing truely the chozen one.

Kenobi also never talked about Anakins feelings with him. Never about his mothers death. He simply didnt care about this annoying guy. Anakin spared Obi Wan and was shocked about kenobis behaviour at the end.

 

I SO disagree with you, DM99, but I'm tired of years of countering such claims, especially when such absurd, extreme claims only push me beyond reasonable counter-arguments. SOME would try to save Vader, some wouldn't. Obi-Wan couldn't bear to watch either; he turned away. I wouldn't blame Obi-Wan if he DID wish to destroy Vader, although I don't believe he ever wanted it to come to that. I say GOOD for distracting Vader, good for kicking him, good for delimbing him, and - understandable for walking away.

Obi-Wan ACCEPTED the fault but believe me, Anakin's fall was due to far more factors than his training alone. FAR more. Obi-Wan accepted 100% of the responsibility, true, but that does not mean it was so.

 

Anakin was a child murderer, he deserved way more than what he got.

 

Just wait until the "we didn't see him actually kill the children" apologists come on. Believe me, they exist, just like the Empire isn't evil nor the Sith because we never saw them do anything evil in the movies, and the only bad stuff the Empire did was in response to the big, bad, traitorous Rebels.

 

Please Obi-wan should not have rendered assistance at all. Anakin was a traitor, a wife beater and a brutal child killer. The only major crime not on his record is rape.

 

Don't give Filoni any ideas....

 

"Please don't look at me like that. It makes me feel uncomfortable." Man, another acronym of Anakin and Padme's love!

 

Seerow

I don't think Dendup had any real reason to be hostile to Mina or vice versa. Dendup thought Onderon was better off neutral and staying out of the conflict, but I don't think he anticipated all the heinous things that the CIS ended up doing. In his mind it seems like the CIS and Republic are the same, but I doubt joining the Republic would have been so detrimental to Onderon, Mina and Dendup, despite the Republic's corruption. I'm sure Mina would never have joined the CIS if she knew the extent of Dooku's work, or if she thought Dooku posed a danger to herself or Lux.

And it's questionable as to just how much he knows. Does he know what happened with the Togruta colony? Does he know that the CIS has tried to enslave populations? Does he know that the CIS was behind Mina's death? I don't even know if Rash knows that, I can't imagine Dooku confiding that information to him. And as far as how Onderon is treated, aside from having troops garrisoned on the planet (but so did Raxus), it doesn't seem like the planet isn't really oppressed (the population isn't enslaved, the droids aren't terrorizing the civilians, etc). Dendup's living as a prisoner at the beginning of the Onderon arc, but I'm not sure if he's been sitting in prison since the beginning of Rash's reign, or if he was imprisoned as a result of Rash's belief that he is involved with the Rebels.

And I'm also unsure how long the Rebels have been around. Were they around since the beginning of Rash's reign? Or are they relatively new? Did Lux help form them? If so then it might be that Mina's death (the truth of which is exposed per Lux) might have been a spark to cause the population to take up arms against the CIS.

Given how strongly Mina supported Dooku, I'm guessing Onderon probably benefited in the beginning from joining the CIS. Just as Raxus looked like a political utopia in contrast to the worlds we see invaded by the CIS. I'm sure Dooku can put on a good show for the politicians and make them believe that they have a voice when they really don't. Mina was a strong supporter of his, and I would think Dooku would treat her and Onderon well, because such support and devotion might inspire other systems to join the Separatist cause as well. I doubt he pillaged Onderon or oppressed it, or he risked losing that strong support. It was only when she met with Padme and was convinced to push for negotiations that Dooku murdered her because then she became a huge liability that he had to deal with, but since she doesn't have Padme's hero armor, she died

Now the Onderonians are rebelling and Dendup is in prison, but I don't know if it was always like that or if the timeline looks something like

Dendup rejects Republic and CIS --> people support Rash and Mina in joining the CIS --> Onderon prospers under CIS --> Mina talks with Padme --> Mina dies --> Lux and Jedi promote Rebellion --> Rash given crown as CIS puppet, Dendup ousted as "traitor" to CIS

Or some of the details might occur in a slightly different order, like Dendup might protest working with the CIS while Rash becomes de facto ruler then usurps the title of king after Mina dies. Or the Rebellion might have existed from the start in opposition to the CIS and Dendup might have condemned the violence but Rash calls Dendup a coward and gets CIS and Onderonian support to suppress the Rebels that are perceived to be terrorists, etc.

 

The more you try to analyze it, the more complicated it becomes. I am sorry but this is just a product of TCW crew/LUCAS being lazy at fitting arcs with each other.

 

Of course it is, I said as much. But the EU will eventually tackle it, it always does. And despite the crew's alleged oversight, the disjointed pieces are still there and it can be mended. I by no means think that my above theories are what Lucas and Filoni were going for. I doubt the idea was that complicated. It's just my fanon.

 

I've been wondering that from the first episode. That and... well, why do the Separatists even want to waste the time with Onderon? Presumably this all has something to do with the Bonteris, but it would be cool if this show spent a little more time filling in the details.

 

Dendup is a pretty special guy, he's one of two or three guys we've come across who sees a cancer spreading threw so he tried to stay neutral. That's consistent with him trying to drive Saw away from rescuing him before getting caught. Regardless of how much he knows about travesties like Ryloth, Kiros, and Mon Calamari he clearly doesn't like them. He had some sense that getting in bed with Dooku was not going to end well for his people. In the end he was right. The C.I.S. came in, tossed him in jail, oppressed his people, and pretty much stomped on the countries sovereignty. He supports the rebellion but doesn't think they can win until he knows the Jedi are involved. That's what TCW's black and white portrayal of good vs evil is going for. If Mina Bonteri had a hand in making that decision for him, making her atleast partially responsible for where Onderon has ended up come "A War On Two Fronts" then wouldn't she be do some animosity from Dendup? He could say Lux's mother would be proud of him because he's in the middle of things like his father actually was.

I get the sense that all of this happened while Mina Bonteri was alive and that she probably did support the C.I.S. coming in. The only one we've seen who seemed to have benefited from it was her. She was living the high life on Raxus while the people she apparently represented on Onderon are at the point they are perfectly fine with getting their power generator getting blown up and are unanimously behind the rebels.

The episode gives me the sense the rebellion thing is recent, perhaps following her death. Unfortunately the best way I can come up with to reconcile this arc and HOBS is to say that Mina Bonteri was two faced and greedy. She played both sides as a supporter of Dooku and a beloved nobility of Onderon and Dendup or her son was never the wiser.

I'm awful. <<;