The Clone Wars: Episodes 117 & 118: Blue Shadow Virus/The 1000 Moons Discussion Threads

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Garth Maul, Feb 10, 2009.

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  1. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I agree, Dr. Vindi is completely insane, so his actions don't have to be rational.

    And with respect to Palpatine, I'm not convinced he thought the Republic HAD to win, that was the beauty of his arrangement with Dooku.
  2. boletus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2008
    star 1
    I would just like to point out, that not only do we not know what Palpatines intentions are or could be for a virus such as the BSV, but we don't know how he would use it to his advantage. Even if Vindi wasn't crazy (or AS crazy) and was following orders--we can only speculate as to the reasoning behind all this. Palpatine would late use the Jedi to be a scape goat, and blame their heresy for his reformation of the Republic into the Empire. But even if he has great foresight, at this point maybe he was thinking he could use the virus to get himself some similar powers.

    We know he manipulates things, but we don't know his intentions until they come to fruition. Since the BSV never really got out, we can't really know for sure if or what the plan could have been. Sure, we can say, "That doesn't make sense..." but we have the knowledge of what is GOING to happen in ROTS, but if we look at it in the NOW (as in the Clone Wars before and up to...) then we really don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Who knows what Palaptines plans could be. Maybe at this point it isn't clear to him exactly HOW Anakin will join him. Maybe he's hoping that some of the Jedi will be wiped out by the virus now, and that he won't have to try to convince the entire galaxy that a couple of Jedi went turncoat and that the centuries long protectors of the Republic suddently went rogue. It'd make more sense to me that he'd be trying to at least build to that somehow over the course of time.

    I'm not positive in anything, but I can't simply say that it doesn't make sense for Palpatine to do something, because at this point he's still playing games behind the curtains. This could just be a move in a game of chess, but this one didn't work out as it could have. Let's not forget that he's playing against himself. One way or the other he's gonna come out on top.

    I do agree, ultimately though, that Vindi is insane and is acting against the will of the rest of the CIS. But we've seen very little in the way of a biological CIS. One guy made the defoliator, which destroys all but Droids. Great... except I'd think that there are more than just droids in the fight. But that's all we've seen, so I guess it makes sense from a tactical standpoint. And then we get a virus, that wouldn't affect the droids. It's almost as if we are to believe that the robots are trying to take over on their own... well if it weren't for the generals.

    To sum it all up: Meh.
  3. MELVIN_SMILEY Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2006
    star 1
    But it is common knowledge, that the maincure for the Blue Shadow Virus just exist on Iego. Typho didn't had any problems finding this knowledge, so to keep the profile of Iego low isn't going to stop the republic to know that Iego is importent once the Virus starts to spread.
    I agree, but this doesn't explain why the rest of the Separatists did install the Laser net on Iego. The doctor didn't even know if there was a cure, so he surely hadn't much to do with the laser trap.


    All the other episodes had quite reasonable plot and also many other shows can pack a comprehensive story in 22 minutes. If this isn't possible, then maybe I should alter the plot or just make a duology out of the story. (wait IT was a duology. o_O but let's keep that a secret[face_shhh] )


    I agree, but IMHO it is a too great advantage for one side, if the virus is infecting many republic worlds, then it could be that the war gets a life of its own. So that the chess-game like-warfare between Dooku and Sidious could be totally disrupted. So why risk it with such a uncontrollable weapon? And are we sure, that Dooku knew about this little projekt of Dr. Vindi?

    @boletus: My problem is not with the fabrication or the possible use of the BSV. I can't understand why the Separatist leave the only source of medicine with only an incompetent security system behind, if this is going to be their new big superweapon. And if Vindie did gone rogue and the virus is lost, then why build the laser grid after all?
    Also I can't see a big advantage for such a laser grid in a conventional space siege of Iego between two big fleets. Like I said, why keep the burglar in the house, if you could stop him from breaking in, in the first place:confused:

    I don't try to be right just to be right. This inconsistence angered me quite a bit, so I hope that a more intelligent SW-Fan than me can give me a reasonable explanation for these plot holes.
  4. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    I think this Vindi could be some kind of rogue separatist. From his dialogue it seems like he would blame any party that is 'spreading the disease of war'. Sure, he's crazy, but I think that's what could be going on here.

    On the other side, a virus wouldn't affect droids, and so you could reason he blames the republic for the war.

    On a sidenote... why is the thread for the next episode not up yet? No new Clone Wars episode this week?
  5. fanboyskywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2008
    star 4
    Again, the laser net was installed before Vindi went nuts.

    For all we know Palpy was going to use the virus as a kind of death star, dropping it on planets to wipe them out or threating to do so to keep systems in line. I don't see how these are incosistencies? And we are giving you reasonable explanations, it just seems that your mind has been made up upon first viewing.

    Maybe the Seps didn't expect the Republic to find out about the cure or to find the lab so fast and for all we know they were going to wipe out Iego with a fleet that got tied up somewhere else fighting the war and couldn't get there fast enough. But even the Seps would probably be smart enough not to A) wipe out the only known cure for a virus and B) alert the Republic to what they were up to by sending a giant fleet to blockade Iego before they had the virus ready to go.

    Can I just say how much i love that Naboo was used for the lab. A) palpy proba
  6. fanboyskywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2008
    star 4
    Yes, but that biological weapon you refer to (from the episode Defenders of Peace) was more contained than the blue shadow virus. That virus was deployed to cover a very small range, say a section of a battle field. That way the CIS could roll into a battle with their droids, drop their weapon on the Clones and the Jedi, quickly wipe them out, and thus win that battle without even really fighting. Also, that virus dissapated so that after a few minutes once the smoke cleared the air was clean again.
  7. WedgeWalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2008
    star 2
    So the cure was obvious to all, except the guy who was concocting the virus?

    I suggest that the obviousness of where the cure was, and the ease with which Typho found it, is an assumption. Maybe it wasn't common knowledge, and he had to do some work. Maybe everyone knew there had been the virus, and that a cure was created. But maybe the initial breakthrough (that the cure was found from this root) was buried in research.

    Point is, we don't know. You assume the cure was known to all. But maybe it wasn't.

    1) Maybe it wasn't going to be a superweapon, but something they used discreetly on the battlefield. (Another way to allow droid armies an advantage over human armies.)

    2) Maybe they didn't know Vindi had gone rogue. Vindi wouldn't have told them. And if the droids were to be reporting back to them, he could've instructed them not to. So they think it's all going to plan. But it isn't.

    Not trying to be insulting here, just saying...if an inconsistency in a television program angers you quite a bit, that's not a good thing. It's just fiction. Even if it means a lot to you as it probaly does to most of us here...it's just fiction.
  8. Dunedain1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2003
    star 2
    This was a fun two-part episode, with this very different sort of threat the Jedi have to deal with. In this case, a deadly germ that must be stopped before it's released, and then a cure having to be found when some are infected by it. And Iego, the planet with a thousand moons, with it's insidious trap, is a very unique and interesting place for Obi-Wan and Anakin to visit. Anakin, as usual, is very impatient and impulsive, but Obi-Wan with his wisdom and cool head once again helped Anakin to stay focused and to think things through more carefully before acting. You can see that if it weren't for Obi-Wan being there to help Anakin on many of these missions, Anakin would get himself into all kinds of trouble. :)

    This alien scientist is really something, he thinks wiping out a virus is the equivalent of *murder*; what a complete nut job! :) Reminds you of those peta people that say a rat is the same in value as a human kid. They're all mental. haha :)
  9. fanboyskywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2008
    star 4
    An interesting web comic might be how Typho tracks down the cure. They don't always have to be prequels to the episodes, do they?
  10. MELVIN_SMILEY Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2006
    star 1
    So it seems. I mean he says, that he was not payed to invent a cure just to modify the virus.


    Typho isn't an expert in medicine let alone virology, so I assume that he looked into a medical databank and there was the information, that the original BSV could be healed with XXX-root. The Episode Guide states: "Typho, meanwhile, has been researching the first outbreak of Blue Shadow Virus and has found a possible antidote in the historical archive: a little known extract made from reeksa root, a vine found only on Iego, world of a thousand moons." So he had just to look into the more or less public historical archive. This doesn't sound like some big hunt for clues.
    So if the cure for BSV was this public, why try to divert the attention of the Republic away of Iego. They would knew/found out the improtence of this planet when the first virusbomb would have gone off.
    And in that case the republic would do anything to get to the root (Am I repeating myself here?), so a little laser net, which only keeps the people of Iego on Iego would be of no use IMHO.


    1)Even if the BSV should be something like a secret agent killing clones on numerous occasions, the republic would try to get the cure sooner or later. And this is the time just a laser net would be just insufficient to keep the republic from capture Iego.

    2) Good they are thinking everything is going to plan, then why leave Iego? I mean the virus will be ready sooner or later and so will the cure become importent. Why not leave a small droid-unit to keep things going smoothly. I mean the republic didn't notice the retreat from Iego 9 months ago, so I don't think that the planet was in any case importent. No harm would come from a little or a normal separatist presence on Iego, even with the laser net.

    It is not like I started to smash my furniture, kicking my cat and beating my girlfriend, but SW is my most precios hobby. I read the books, I watch the films, I talk with other fans on the internet and I watch the animated series.
    I don't expect a equaly complex plot like say Lost, but when I see an episode, where there are plot holes, where I could fly the Executor through, I am disappointed. This episode really felt to me like the makers lost interest half the way, saying something like: "Good we have nice pictures and cool ideas, even when they don't fit together. Just let's this know without more explanation, I mean it worked with Matrix II and III."
    So I feal a little bit screwed with.
  11. boletus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2008
    star 1
    If the Virus had not yet been released, then the Republic does not yet know about it. There is no reason to think more than a laser net is needed on Iego. At least not yet. We don't know exactly what the plan was. We've all sort of agreed that Vindi wasn't following it, whatever it may have been. This could also mean that he isn't being as honest with what stages he is in production of the BSV. If it's not released yet the CIS might not want to waste the resources of staying on a planet to protect a source of a possible antidote to a weapon they aren't even sure is going to come through yet. And I'm not sure about timeline, but perhaps they were hoping to Defoliate the vines so the root wouldn't even exist to be a vaccine. And since it hadn't been released, why destroy what could help even them if something goes wrong.

    Not knowing something is different than knowing what something isn't. We don't know a lot here. That's not a plot hole. A plot whole would be something that couldn't be explained through rational thinking. Like in all wars, you don't put all your eggs* in one basket, often projects are started and then abandoned. Perhaps they originally were going to stay on Iego but some general decided it was more important to use the resources elsewhere, maybe knew that the root could be a possible cure for a biological weapon (that they may or may not know about) and threw up the laser net to stop at least the immediate processing of it. Maybe they'd return to the planet should the virus get released. Once it's released in mass quantities how much root would you really need to cover all the infected. Would there be enough. Could you synthesize it? There's a lot of different questions we could ask, but we don't have to the threat was neutralized before it got out. You're right, it would have been a smarter move by the CIS to stay on Iego. But someone dropped the ball. That happens. But then again, that's because we now KNOW that the plan didn't go accordingly and that Anakin and Obi-Wan went looking for the root before even the Seps knew that anyone was infected. We get to ask larger questions based on outcomes we saw, we don't get to see the inner workings of the CIS intelligence and how or why they make the decisions they do. I figure we must assume there's good reason, because we haven't been told there wasn't. If they gave us a reason that made no sense, like "They left Iego because they didn't know the value of the root...", when Typho googled it to find the answer. Yeah, that'd be a bit off. But we just weren't filled in on ALL the details. Details a reasonable person can fill in the blanks or guess on. I really don't see it as such an egregious error as you I guess.

    --

    *EDIT - I wrote chickens instead of eggs... Fixed it.
  12. KotORBF2Female_Revan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2009
    star 5
    I wonder: Am I the only one who thinks Rex and Ahsoka make a cute couple?
    I mean, Rex was the one who caught Ahsoka in his arms when she faints in Mystery of 1,000 Moons.

    [face_plain]
  13. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    I sort of agree with one of your points. What have here are not necessarily plot holes, it's more of a case of shoddy storytelling. As you stated, it's possible to find answers that make sense to explain the logic behind the events. The problem is that we shouldn't have to go through so much trouble to make the parts fit if the story had been better put together in the first place. A plot hole is Obi-Wan's lightsaber popping up out of nowhere or the whole "spiked drink" incident, fortunately the weaknesses of this latest duology are nowhere near as bad.
  14. AhsokaMiro Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2008
    star 3
    Ah, but the age difference is the killer. She's probably twice as old as he is!

    Okay, to add to the pile of complaints about the not-necessarily-plot-holes but, I dunno, unnecessary loose ends, here's one my 7-year old just caught: the water-borne strain of the virus, which is the same one that was so deadly that it was wiped out completely generations ago... well, isn't it still loose in Naboo's water system for all we know, and for all the concern that was shown over the issue? I mean, my poor kid is assuming that everyone in Otoh Gunga is totally dead now.
  15. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    With respect to the water-borne virus, I expect Naboo/the Republic has sufficient technology to constrain the virus once they're aware of its existence.

    With respect to the "shoddy" storytelling, I think you have to be able to connect the dots to a certain extent. It's a 22-minute episode, and the main purpose is to show the exciting adventures of Our Heroes in the Clone Wars.

    If you're looking for complex and continuity-error-free storytelling, look elsewhere.


    IDK, guys, after a certain point, it's like the SW fans who, for some reason, wanted absolutely everything in the PT tied to the OT in a concrete manner - why? - we're not sure. There were people complaining that we didn't specifically see Obi-Wan Kenobi "serve" Bail Organa in the Clone Wars, thus Leia's message to Kenobi in ANH is false.

    Any creative work can be splintered and eventually disintegrated by criticism. Do we get what they were trying to show in the 2-parter? For the most part, I say yes. There were obviously some things that could have been handled better, but I really don't think this is the type of show that is supposed to hold up to intense scrutiny.
  16. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    And yet, intense scrutiny is the least you could expect from a fan discussion forum, so I don't understand why people don't like it when we start picking plots apart and revealing their weaknesses. If we weren't doing this, what WOULD we be talking about here? "Oh, that was awesome", "Yeah, it was uber cool", "I love Star Wars", "Me too, this rocks", "Yey!".... Yeah, that's really enticing...

    I don't think we're being unrealistic when we expect tighter plots from a 22 minutes show. For example, I can't remember any such complaining on episodes such as Rookies, which shows it IS possible to create a water-tight script (and one of the best episodes to boot).
  17. Bowen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 1999
    star 4
    It kind of creeped me out a bit they had a character named Jaybo, considering how many people call me J-Bo, pronounced the same way... "Jonathan Bowen," Jaybo. That just was... interesting. I'm like wait what is that me?! haha.
  18. AhsokaMiro Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2008
    star 3
    Exactly... same with Cloak of Darkness and quite a few others. And there have been other episodes where there *have* been loose ends, but not so many as to overwhelm the flow of the story. This particular two-parter, for my tastes, reached the tipping point. I agree that filling in the blanks is actually part of the fun in SW, but it is possible to create a story where there are just plain too many blanks, and it becomes distracting.

    Matter of opinion, of course. You could also have perfect continuity and still create an episode that wasn't involving or compelling in the least... which would be way worse in my eyes, and thankfully TCW hasn't done that.
  19. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Oh, I've nitpicked to death, obviously, or I wouldn't have 7,000 posts on the JC. ;)

    I just think most shows/films have plot problems when you get down to the nitty-gritty.


    I'm definitely curious to see why these 2-parters aren't written/directed by the same crew.
  20. fanboyskywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2008
    star 4
    Actually, according to the OS, the monkey lizard swiped Obi-wan's lightsaber off the Twilight after he landed. THe monkey lizard also stole the two sabers Dooku had (including Anakin's) when the Count wasn't paying attention (kind of unbelievable for a Sith lord to get the drop on him like that, but at least it's an explanation). So presumably Obi-wan gets his back when Dooku and Anakin get their's back because they were all kept together.

    It's also presumable that the monkey lizard spiked Anakin and Obi-wan's replacement drinks after we fade out on Dooku Captured and before Gungan General begins. Good enough for me.
  21. fanboyskywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2008
    star 4
    Matter of opinion. These two episodes, for my money, were better than Rookies. They were grander, which probably accounts for your calling them as having plot holes. Look, SW is filled with plot holes when you get down to it. I don't see these episodes as having plot holes. Maybe they didn't show every single thing that happened, but that would be boring. If you're going to pick, your'e going to find something. Nothing stood out that bad for me or at least detracted me from enjoying the episodes.

    Look at all the good stuff they did. Big myserty. Big action. Good characters. Multiple plots and characters to follow. Check check check and check.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Monkey lizards make good plot hole filler!
  23. fanboyskywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2008
    star 4
    LMAO. Heroes should get one.
  24. WedgeWalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2008
    star 2
    As for me, it's not that I don't like it when people criticize. My deal is that sometimes the criticism is coming because fans, perhaps by nature of being fans, set the bar too high.

    Episodes like Rookies have a very simple straightforward plot (that which happens in the episode, the events shown) and story (the characters, character motivations, events, etc. that are connected to the plot but not necessarily shown. (Story: Grievous wants to sneak past a listening post to attack the Republic because he's at war with them. Plot: He sends droids to attack the outpost, the clones are driven from the base and fight their way back in and prevent Grievous via alerting the fleet.) You can do a plot and story like that in 22 minutes without holes or unresolved questions. But episodes like BSV/Moons have a complex story (Who's Vindi? What is he trying to accomplish? Are his goals different than those of his CIS superiors? If so, what are their goals? What are their tactical plans? How does Iego fit in? What's the history of this virus? How was it eradicated? What records were kept? Etc. etc.) Even with 44 minutes, you're going to be hard-pressed to deal with all of that in the time allotted if you still want the show to be action oriented.

    To look to this show and demand complex stories be thoroughly explored is, I think, to set one's self up for disappointment. It's like, if I build a car. And someone comes up to it looking for something that can fly. He/she sees that it can't fly, and criticizes me. That is, in a sense, unfair, since I wasn't trying to build a vehicle that flies.

    The creators of the show aren't trying to make a vehicle that flies (thoroughly deals with complex stories). They're trying to make a car (22-minute action-oriented show). To criticize the car because it can't fly is to not acknowledge the limitations inherent in the car concept.

    In 22 minutes you can adequately cover simple stories. But very complex ones, not so much. So you either stick to simple stories (which would bring with it criticisms of it's own), or you handle complex ones but don't do it thoroughly.

    It's a trade-off. And folks are well within their rights to criticize when they don't think the trade-off is handled well. But in the end, there are limits to the medium. To work within the limits is to sacrifice something else.

    Personally, I'd rather have some complex stories and unanswered questions than just the more direct simple story episodes.
  25. Quiff_vs_Sith Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Perhaps it was just the faux-German accent, but did anybody else think that Vindi was somehow meant to be a tribute to Peter Sellers' Dr Strangelove character? I wasn't overly keen on the two episodes, but the Vindi character was funny nevertheless.
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