Full Series The Clovis Trilogy (6.05-6.07) Discussion Thread

anyone who has ever seen a 007 movie knows that sex, flirting, seduction, teasing, etc are the best tools a spy or double agent has next to a gun and a fast ride, not saying it is right - but nothing about espionage is moral unless you justify it by the results, in the clone wars that is one of the main themes is that EVERYONE is compromising their values to achieve victory.

Palpatine has orchestrated this entire situation specifically to push Anakin's buttons and make him jealous, as far as the morality of espionage that may be one of the points of the arc, to show that ends do not justify means,

 

These recent events do bring up interesting questions about San Hill. I do agree that Hill probably still had many connections and access to capital, but I can't really consider the Banking Clan neutral anymore. The institution is being placed (nationalized?) under the care of Palpatine, leader of one of two of the main sides in this galactic conflict. Yeah, sure, we can spin it saying it's all part of Palpatine's "plan," and perhaps members of the Republic might accept the stewardship as a fair and good thing, but I don't see how any member of the CIS would consider this move good, or even fair. I'm sure even devout followers of the Republic, those who hate seeing the institution come under the Chancellor's control, are ok with the events, as it gives them an advantage over the CIS, the "common enemy."


Whether or not one considers the EU (I do), it is reasonable to assume that during a time of conflict, there are many leaders, individuals, banks, and institutions of the InterGalatic Banking Clan. Hill never committed "all" of the Clan's assets to the CIS, I suppose you could say he was, in essence, the epitome of the evil capitalist.

That said, I think these recent events do necessitate some additional info regarding Hill, the Banking Clan's structure, and so forth.

 

Funniest thing about this arc was Palpatine assuring everyone that the banks would be freed after the crisis was over.

Considering Muunilist is firmly within the Imperial Remnant (at it's lowest extent) 60 years later. Welcome to the Empire guys, You're gonna be here for a while.

 

OK that is cool, not to be confrontational but genuinely curious because I am not sure I understand, whenever Religion, Politics, Morality, Theology, Philosophy, or any thing enters the conversation you seem to say that you do not care and just want to be entertained....I am confused as to how you can have a show about war, ANY war, without delving into these questions and character motivations...and I agree I would not like some heavy handed preachy lecture but I think it is OK for artists to express ideas or ask questions with their works and that it even can make them better sometimes if they ask deep questions but don't exactly answer them

 

I will say Clovis did deserve to get beaten up for grabbing and trying to kiss Padme against her will.

 

I would never suggest you let any film maker or TV show or artist tell you what to think or do or who to vote for or anything like that, but I don't know how to create a plot without conflict and resolution, cause and effect, just seems like without these elements it would be hard to make any interesting plots beyond 1 or 2 seasons, and especially any that would be worthy of actual discussion on a message board if it was just like "that looked cool and I liked the music" but please continue to enjoy the show as you see fit (not that you need my permission) for me I like when the show gets into deeper issues...I am curious anakinfansince1983, what are some of your favorite episodes of TCW? because I am having a hard time thinking of any episodes that don't have some message or meaning, I mean the show starts off with those fortune cookie messages so it may not be the right show if you are looking for philosophy free entertainment...and a show about war may not form the beliefs of a 42 year old (I am 41 myself) but it was on the Cartoon Network and may be helping to form beliefs of some younger viewers, I have grown up on Star Wars and can say that it has in some ways influenced the person I have become as an adult.

I will agree with you and say that being entertaining should be the #1 goal of every episode and movie, I just disagree that some of these issues are not entertaining because I find the politics and philosophy and theology very interesting and an integral part of the story

 

The only way to watch Clone Wars wrong is to not watch it all ....I hate when people say I am watching it or interpreting it wrong as well, I will not tell you that... those are all very excellent episodes, it appears to me that you favor action and all out warfare and battles, that is an excellent aspect of Star Wars maybe the best, but I still think that having these multiple levels is what makes SW so great, if you want to just take in eye candy with cool SPFX it is all there, but if you want to try to read more into it is there as well, it is for each fan to decide what makes SW work for them so even if we disagree on every aspect of the show we can at least still agree that we are finding value in the show even if it is for totally different reasons.

 

I'm a big fan of most of the ones you listed. I know we agree on Ventress badassness, Bounty may be the best episode they ever made...

I would put Wookiee Hunt over Padawan Lost, but I'm curious why you prefer the part 1. I know we don't see eye to eye on a particular character but would like to hear your thoughts.

They did an admirable job with this Clovis arc, I loved many of the character driven and action set pieces. The politics did weigh it down and it got clunky. It didn't help that my wife watched with me and she hates any Padme political episode. I had that vibe in the midst of the viewing...

 

Indeed. I've noticed that quite a lot myself. I might also add that in my opinion, when you eliminate these things, what's left to find entertainment in?

I'm 42 myself. I myself have responsibilities in real life. I want entertainment and relaxation from my television myself. But that seems to be where we regretfully part ways.

Because, for me, the Religion, Politics, Morality, Theology, Philosophy of it all is relaxation and escapism to me. I LOVES me a good profundity. There's real fun and enjoyment I derive from that, and it's not like my brain hasn't been exhausted all week from work or worry. My work is exhausting; my LIFE is exhausting. But that doesn't then mean my version of entertainment and escapism is a cartoon leeched of anything that makes it MORE than just a cartoon. The fact that my moral framework was established decades ago really doesn't enter into it; in fact, I'd argue that these days, some people could stand to have their moral framework reinforced, regardless of their age. And that's part of what Star Wars is for.

To throw your reasoning style back your way, if I wanted just a "fun cartoon," I'd go watch some SpongeBob. But I don't; I'm 42, and I want some more meat and potatoes with my fun; in fact, I consider the meat and potatoes to be PART of the fun. I have fun when I'm intellectually engaged. And that too is part of what Star Wars is for, and it's always been that way. The franchise delivers substance as well as fun; it has ALWAYS delivered that. It has NEVER been solely, or even primarily, about relaxation and escapism; those things are, at best, the franchise's candy coating, neither more nor less. One can like it on those terms regardless, but that's rather like saying you like lemon meringue pie for the meringue topping only, and otherwise hate the taste of lemons; if that's the case, why not go get meringue flavor elsewhere, from something that has no lemons in it? And if you still then, of your own free will, go get your meringue fix from lemon meringue pie, why would you then complain about the taste of the pie and say that if you wanted to taste lemons, you'd go get a lemon?

Such are the questions that naturally come to mind every time I read your insistence on relaxation and escapism at the expense of other considerations. I'm not asking you to defend just wanting some fun from things, but when you continuously insist on seeking a simplicity from the show that it obviously never intended to provide, such comments as mine or Weechee's ought to be considered natural and even expected, particularly on a discussion board - for many reasons, as I'm sure you're aware, not everyone's going to see TCW, or Star Wars itself, in the same terms as you do. Many of them go eat lemon meringue pie in full knowledge that they're going to taste some lemon in it, and they don't then blame it for tasting like lemon.

And I'm not going to try to take legitimacy from what you want from entertainment, or WHY you want it: we want different things because we're different people, simple as that; besides, I don't know the nature of your responsibilities, nor you mine. You want what you want, and you have that right. And if you can say what you are and are not willing to take from TCW, I'll support your right to feel that way; but I'll also say that in doing so, you're intentionally rejecting other things about it that make it great. That shouldn't matter if, at the end of the day, you're happy - and that's really what's important; but I still can't help seeing it as anything other than as a loss.

And now, I suddenly find myself hungry for pie...

 

I think if I were a bigger fan of the Kalifa character and how she was portrayed, i might be with you on Padawan Lost being the one. I was a sucker for the big action finish with Wookiees and Trandoshans, Chewie's part, the little tag with Sugi/Seripas showing up with the Wookiees, and Ahsoka killing that last guy.

 

Great post Pfluegermeister!

I'll admit that several of anakinfansince1983's posts over the past few years have rubbed me the wrong way, but like you laid out, we all watch the show as different people with different tastes and we all come away from it enjoying, and not enjoying different things.

I disagree with the idea that anakinfansince1983 is watching it the wrong way, but I also disagree with anakinfansince1983 stirring the pot by referring to the elements that you (and I) enjoy as "preachiness and philosophical bull****".

 

I'll try to keep it civil. But when one repeatedly gives an opinion that invites comment, one should not be too surprised when it comes.

 

I can not speak for another but I did not take away from his post that he was trying to tell you that you were watching wrong but was merely trying to persuade you to try to take another look at what is there, it is just that when you find something so great you want others to understand it the way you do and share the joy, i could be wrong

 

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"Now now Draco, play nicely."​

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As fellow mod Todd the Jedi pointed out, personal attacks are not welcome in LACWAC. We are not trying to restrict amicable conversation or even heated debates, but there is no reason to go after people personally, even if they are "asking for it". We're all here because we love Star Wars and while we may disagree on which parts we feel work the best or worst, at the end of the day we're here to enjoy it. Personal attacks create a poisoned environment and that's not what we're here to do. Thanks for understanding.​

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On the subject of Clovis, he seemed to have aged quite a bit...​

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Not seeing "wrong" or any attempt at persuasion here...

 

On all these points, we're in complete agreement. Clovis was never particularly my favorite character, but I too liked the improvements in both the look of the character and the quality of his dialogue. Some of his lines in Senate Spy were not so much cavity-inducing to me as they were wince-inducing. For all that Star Wars has, simple and complex, it sometimes also has lines that can be considered the proverbial bull in the china shop that is language.

And yes, that comment took me out of the show too, at least momentarily. I must admit that I find myself either saying or thinking words to that effect from time to time - but then, I'm 42. It's a little bit harder for me to buy a character saying that when she's 26, particularly when comparing herself to the way she was at 22. I'm sure it's all a matter of perspective, but it did make me wince.

 

Agreed. In Senate Spy he was, honestly, ugly. In this arc at least he has some semblance of attractiveness. That's why I like the newer animation from Seasons 3-6: the animation became so much better and the character's actually looked like characters. Seasons 1-2 Anakin looked like he had a fifteen-year-old's face on an adult's body. Season 3-6 Anakin looks like Anakin, and in fact there was a scene in Season 6 where I actually thought wow, he looks like Hayden Christensen! I guess Clovis came out the better from his encounter with Lot Dodd.

Agreed. Clovis pretty much disproves "not as young as we used to be" during his fight with Anakin, and I'll just bet that Padme did the same when she and Anakin made up after the arc...Luke and Leia had to be conceived some time!