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Discussion The Cohesion/Direction/Structure Of The ST & It's Pros & Cons

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Tyrian, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Which has been proven to only appear to be the case for those not taking in all that has been written and only those elements, out of context, which support their assessment.
     
    Ricardo Funes likes this.
  2. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    We fully understand that you have zero ability to accept any degree of criticism about films you, personally, love and it is a tremendous burden on you to witness in horror when others might not have the exact same opinion as yourself. We also sympathize that this is why you spend nearly all of your time running into threads to battle the evil of other people disagreeing with you. But, at some point, the ad hominem rewording of people's points and strawmanning are going to be treated as baiting and it will result in bans.
     
    2Cleva, -LordSkywalker- and wobbits like this.
  3. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    We fully understand that you have zero ability to accept any degree of criticism about films ....[/quote]

    This is untrue. All I am doing is discussing the topics and providing arguments to support my opinion and facts that challenge the arguments used by other people to support their opinions, good or bad. I don't have any problem with negative opinions or criticism coming from people who are not satisfied. I believe there is sanctuary where opinions can be posted without any justification require or reply to be answered.
     
    Darth Downunder likes this.
  4. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    You twist others' words on a near-relentless basis in order to... I don't know... shame them (?) for not liking a film as much as you do. I am not making this statement in a vacuum. The entire staff have discussed this. It is a daily, non-stop tantrum where you never concede a single point and use ad hominem and strawman reinterpretations of people's posts in order to shut up any potential negative views. It is baiting. It is disruptive to actual discussion. It is disruptive to any concept of online community. It is on record. And it will stop.
     
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  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    No. To discuss the movies. Which everyone is free to do or not do with whomever they like. I don't know what emotions people should or do take away with them after discussing the movies.


    Except with me. Certainly not in private.

    I have done nothing wrong and haven't broken any rules or ignored official/public warnings.

    Now that you mention it, nobody has ever conceded a point to me. I never thought about it before but that would appear to be the case. I am not interested in scoring points. People can provide credible and authentic facts to counter the point which we can discuss, or they can leave it. That;s the concept of an online community as far as I knew it. Nothing that I have done here has prevented anyone from giving their opinion or enjoying the community as described.
     
  6. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    It's too late. This is your reputation. You actively earned it. You actively cultivate it. Enjoy reaping the benefits of having us see you this way based on your endlessly antagonistic posting habits.
     
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Is it appropriate for reputations about users that are discussed by some behind their backs to be posted in this discussion?

    All the discussions I have regarding opinions and the arguments provided to support them have been a two way street. Nobody is disadvantaged or had their opinion exposed to any more, or any less discussion that these boards allow or are designed for. So I don't see what the problem is unless it's the opinions themselves.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  8. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    It is appropriate when the person discussed by staff... or, to play your game one more time "behind your back"... decided to derail the thread with yet another round of victimization whining in response to a warning from a staff member. You wanted to know what all the big meanies were saying behind your back in a discussion we are more than allowed to have since it pertains to the health of the forums? I was letting you know in a single, concise post. The fact that this is dragged out is not my fault. It is the work of someone who cannot handle reading a single disagreeable viewpoint.
     
  9. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    I cannot see Finn as more important than Kylo, who is a Skywalker.

    Finn is the main male character for the heroes, but only if we consider the 3 movies. On TLJ, for example, Luke is the main hero character.
     
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  10. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Porg of New Films & Fan Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Yes, we have.
     
  11. La Calavera

    La Calavera Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    I would agree with that after TFA, but that is not what TLJ showed us imo.
     
    Jedi Jessy likes this.
  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    No I just hoped that if I was causing a problem for the forum or preventing the other forum users from posting their opinions (and I am not aware of this), they would nip the rule breaking in the bud and/or provide an official direct warning, like I see others receiving day after day, rather than wait to produce a one sided narrative of a backstory to it in a public manner like this.

    I was not one bit concerned about what managers might be gathering around to say what they think about me behind my back, and I imagine none of the other users were either, until everyone in this thread was informed of it. I'm still not overly concerned about what some admins might be gathering to say about me behind my back. Not as much as I am that this fact, as far as we know, and only from you, that it has only been invoked in this manner after and equitable amount of back and forth with people of differing positions, that did not contravene any rules that I am aware of.

    You let me know that I cannot accept any criticism of movies that I love. But that is totally untrue, so naturally I responded, as this online community for discussion allows. What other people cannot do has never been a feature of my comments on their opinions, whether they disagree with mine or not. Mainly because it is regularly and expressly forbidden by admin. But also because it does not ever support my argument to discuss what I think other users are like.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  13. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Well, in TLJ Finn is a main hero character, but his adventures are a side quest (like the side quests we do in Skyrim and other RPGs, for example).

    Kylo is the main quest.
     
    jaqen likes this.
  14. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Seems to me that Finn was a major, major player in TFA, yet they didn't know what to do with him in TLJ. He was almost like a third wheel. It felt like they invented a really forced sub-plot just to give Finn something "interesting" to do since he was inconsequential to the main plot, and having him just hang out on the ship with Poe the whole time would have been boring.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  15. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2011
    No, not exactly.

    The FO has its WMD at the start of the trilogy, much like the Empire. In TLJ, beginning a few hours after TFA ends, we see that the loss of this WMD - an entire terraformed or manufactured planetoid, the largest engineering project ever known in the setting, the most powerful weapon ever to have existed, staffed by many thousands of personnel - doesn't halt the ascendancy of the FO. It has at least two dreadnaughts ready to deploy and is launching enough ships to take control of the galaxy.

    The FO cannot be said to start the trilogy in the position of the Rebel Alliance. It's more of a hidden Empire.

    Based on what we know of the broader arc of the Star Wars story, it should really just be a rogue state antagonising a hegemonically powerful NR. But that isn't how it's depicted in the ST.
     
    Torib likes this.
  16. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    In TFA, Finn started as a stormtrooper and ended as a friend to Rey. But he was not 100% onboard with the Resistance cause, he was more worried about Rey than anything else.

    In TLJ, Finn started as he ended TFA, only thinking about Rey, but by the end of the film, he changed. He stopped thinking only about Rey, and started worrying more about the "cause". His turning point is when he acknowledges that he is Rebel Scum.

    So it is an excessive simplification to say that the movie didn't know what to do with him. Of course they did and gave him an arc. Of course nobody is forced to like this arc, but he had an arc and was not just dead weight, as his actions influenced in the outcome of the movie.

    I was talking about how the position of power is swapped. A hidden Empire, you mentioned. But they are not as strong as the Empire, and this is why their first decapitation attack was made without even declaring war.
     
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  17. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    I actually agree with the rest of your post, save this part:

    RJ created and expanded the story so much with TLJ that Rey could've died and the story absolutely could've continued. If THE shocking twist, the one to come closest to TESB, was the death of the lead protagonist in the middle chapter, there's more than enough left over from TLJ to continue on to IX. The inclusion of broom boy, the implications of all that, could've absolutely been used as Rey's ultimate legacy; she was the first of many awakenings. Since TLJ narrowed back in on the Skywalker focus, one could even move forward into IX with Kylo as the lead protagonist, since he was set up well for that in TLJ.

    Obviously I'd rather have Rey around, but losing her after VIII isn't at all akin to losing Luke or Anakin. This narrative has more breathing room than that, and a much wider focus.
     
    Martoto77 likes this.
  18. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
     
  19. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Hang on. Did I really just read someone say that it would be fine to kill off Rey because of.....Broom Boy?
     
  20. Certain_man

    Certain_man Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2018
    I just had the same reaction. I guess, as one of the mods said above, some people really are unable to accept any criticism of a movie they love.
     
  21. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Hi. Welcome to the new star wars fandom.
     
    Certain_man likes this.
  22. Dame sans merci

    Dame sans merci Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2016
    Does that not strike you as something of a problem though? If you can kill off your protagonist like that, and simply move on, it says that Rey herself is pretty irrelevant. In her own trilogy.
     
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  23. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    It's a false assumption to begin with. Of course it's possible to continue the story, but the trilogy would be ruined, or at least badly damaged. It would've been possible for Luke to die at the end of TESB too, & still conclude the trilogy. Esp since in that movie Yoda said "There is another". Not sure what the point of these hypotheticals are though.
     
  24. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    If Rey can be killed and replaced with no problem, she will be seen as a cog in the Star Wars story. And given the hype of her being the first Star Wars female protagonist, that is a double slap in the face. And it's kinda funny that it would be considered a "good" idea because it's a "shocking" twist just because it's something the audience would not expect it.

    Just because the audience doesn't expect it doesn't mean it's good. A subversion of the sake of a subversion will only last for a first view. Then, once people get over the shock, it will face scrutiny and critique during the test of time. Without substance, it will be remembered as something from M Night Shamalyan's bad films. And subversions of subversions is a symptom that the writer is afraid that conventional storytelling wouldn't get them an audience and thus tries to do every unexpected thing for short-term without thinking about long-term gain. It is not thinking about the story would flow naturally, but rather how to try to stay one step ahead of the game for a short-term fad. Eventually, it will come full circle and we go back to the "boring and predictable" storytelling because by this point, the audience will no longer expect anyone to go back that time; therefore subversion.

    In regards to Luke Skywalker possibly dying in TESB, I should remind people that Lucas had no intention of killing off Luke in TESB. The whole "There is another" point is merely an illusion to give the audience tension that Luke might die even though we know he'll somehow prevail in the end. Same thing with ROTJ. Luke was always going to prevail. This is why the greatest writers are writers who mask predictability with believable tensions to the audience rather than actually pulling the trigger to maintain audience's attention.
     
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  25. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Right...but who said they're considering killing Rey off? Have I missed a press release? Where is this coming from?
     
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