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Discussion The Cohesion/Direction/Structure Of The ST & It's Pros & Cons

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Tyrian, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    I want you to stop and just reflect on what you just said. Now ask yourself why you're arguing against the plain fact that "no, rey can't be killed and have the story continue.". Thats like saying indiana jones could've been crushed by that boulder and the story could continue but "the story would be ruined".
     
  2. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Not quite. These movies aren't called "Rey & the Awakening of the Force", & "Rey & the Last Jedi". You can't have Indiana Jones movies without Indiana Jones. The ST movies aren't Rey movies. So not an appropriate comparison. The story of the ST would be "ruined" to an extent if Rey died now. In between Eps 8 & 9. Bcs she's crucial to the Jedi/Force element of the story which is what SW is based upon. But what is the point you're trying to make? I still don't get it.
     
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  3. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    LFL and practically every body involved with the film, tags rey as the main character. I mean, you can attempt to downplay that if you want, but its simply not reality.
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    What about it? Is that a bad thing? SW trilogies are based on the hero's journey of a young Force sensitive prodigy. Anakin->Luke->Rey. I'm not seeing the problem. I don't even know what we're talking about here.
     
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  5. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Rey is the main character of the Light side, and Kylo is the main character of the Dark side

    Like Luke and Vader in the OT.

    If we had to choose a single character as the main, it would have to be Rey, of course.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  6. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Tell me how offering conjecture about Rey dying, and how that would affect the structure of the ST, equals me being "unable to accept any of criticism of a movie I love"?

    I'd love to hear this.

    It would strike me about as odd as the protagonist in Psycho being killed off and the film undergoing a radical shift in focus, and tone, because of it.

    Do I want Rey killed? Of course not. Do I consider Rey irrelevant? That's absurd.

    Could this particular trilogy actually conclude with the death of it's lead protagonist in the way the ST and PT couldn't? Absolutely.

    Is that a flaw? I can see where some would consider it a flaw. If you consider Rey underdeveloped and optional to her own story, yes this would seem like validation for that view. A strong enough argument could be made.

    But this isn't unique to Rey. There are other series, film and TV, where I can envision the lead protagonist dying and the story continuing. In fact there are actual examples of this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  7. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Maybe the boulder would have been able to speak Hovitos.
     
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  8. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    At the time of the release of ROTJ, there was a HUGE rumor that Luke was going to die in the movie. I always wondered if that was a leak from Lucasfilm to amp up the tension in the film, since nothing bad actually happens to any of the main characters.
     
  9. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Surely she has to be a Skywalker then in a Skywalker saga by virtue of fact she is a main character? If not that would be slightly weird...
     
  10. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    I agree. It is a little weird, but whatever.
     
  11. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    It's super weird though right? I hope they resolve both Rey being a Skywalker, and the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis. Star Wars always flowed and was understood purely from on screen explanation. This doesn't make much sense and isn't how the Force works. And these are SEQUELS. They are meant to continue the story. It would be akin to ESB, or AOTC not following on from the previous instalments.

    Also:

    according to an interview with Metro.

    “What I wish is that [Disney] had been more accepting of [Lucas'] guidance and advice," Hamill told Metro. "Because he had an outline for ‘7,’ ‘8,’ and ‘9’. And it is vastly different to what they have done.”
     
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  12. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011

    a) the Skywalker does not need to be the main protagonist.
    b) the Darth Plagueis thing might not even be a thing George intended.
     
  13. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    The main saga is meant to revolve around the family. You are seriously saying that it makes thematic sense in one saga to end it by having them be the bad guys who ruined it all?

    Force Above, you really are lost!
     
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  14. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    The PT was originally going to centre around Obi-Wan as the primary protagonist. It's still about the Skywalker's even if they aren't the primary protagonists.

    Luke isn't a bad guy who ruined it all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  15. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Also, redemption isn’t exactly an unheard of concept in the Star Wars saga.
     
  16. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    at this point, i wouldn't count on it.
     
    DarthTalonx likes this.
  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    This is where the ST sets itself apart from the other trilogies. It has two leads in terms of the mythological journey/coming of age Force part of the story. One of them is a Skywalker by blood. The way I see it the ST features the Force based character arcs of Rey & Kylo. Finn & Poe are the Han Solo type of co-leads. Not part of the Force mythology but still highly significant characters. I'm still at a loss in seeing a problem with any of that.
    Yet he prefers the movie to RotJ, the Prequels & TFA. Allll the way back in November, before the kerfuffle about his Luke criticisms (so it can't be just him saving face) he said this:
    "(TLJ) Is more challenging, it has more depth, it's more cerebral. It's also very funny in parts! It's probably my favorite one since Empire Strikes Back".

    And that's while having those stated issues about his own character! Quite an endorsement
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  18. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Yes, the coming of age story for a 30 year old man who has committed a copious amount of atrocities that would get him summarily executed. Ones that he seems to have little to no regret for. OK.

    Also, Finn doesn't really work either because he isn't Han Solo. He's the farthest away from Han Solo that you could possibly get when it comes to his background. The quipping and comedic scenes (when it comes to the type of comedy used) makes the character seem like his background was entirely forgotten. A claim that the deleted scenes and ignored ancillary material often support.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  19. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    He is? Both former Imperial/First Order trainees. Both (probably) orphans. Both roguish. Both used to great effect in terms of humour as well as reckless bravado. Both protective of the lead female protagonist. Both with questionable loyalties early in the story, however both commit to the cause at some point. I could go on but you probably get the point.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  20. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Han solo is suave. Finn is lame. Case closed.
     
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  21. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Ok. Despite the fact that Han often bumbles his way through danger. Can't fix his ship properly. Has a toolbox fall on his head for laughs. Constant slapstick pratfalls with Chewie. Is labeled a pirate, no-good swindler, laser-brain, nerf-herder etc etc. Is captured & turned into a human piece of artwork & hung on the wall.
     
  22. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    All the circumstances of Finn's "conscription" into the First Order should make these two entirely different, rendering Finn's bumbling idiocy, poorly-conceived comedic scenes and general attitude entirely unfitting of the character. He was largely a character that did not resemble many others in the Star Wars films as far as premise goes and his potential was ultimately squandered.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  23. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    ... And saves the day, sacrifices himself, and STILL gets the girl.
     
  24. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    He sort of got the girl late in the second movie. As did Finn. Or doesn't Rose measure up?
    You're speaking in the past tense about a character arc that's only two thirds of the way through. Or perhaps more with spin-offs.

    I think Finn's history is exactly why he's so awkward & at times bumbling. It's almost as if he has the stunted social skills of someone who's spent their upbringing only among a bunch of other brainwashed soldiers. Han, obviously is vastly more assured & socially experienced. They're both realistic depictions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  25. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Brainwashed killing machines don't do everything Finn does on the Falcon when he interacts with Rey. He acts what is more in line with normal society's idea of socially awkward. Not the "guy who has been stripped of anything resembling a normal life in order to be a cog in relentless war machine" kind of socially awkward. It goes without mentioning that he hardly ever has to deal with the implications of this. Let's face it, if they were going to waste any opportunity with this aspect in The Last Jedi by chaining him to Rose, there is no way that is going to get any meaningful development in Episode IX.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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