ST The Cohesion/Direction/Structure Of The ST & It's Pros & Cons

I think part of the reason they feel like every Star Wars film needs to have certain elements to it is precisely because of the demands of the most demanding fans to be honest.

It’s been a damned if they do and damned if they don’t much of the time with stuff like that. Especially in the saga trilogy.

They wisely have encouraged and promoted to the fans the fact that the anthology films can be more unique to themselves in dramatic ways.

 

I have no problem with SW film having certain elements in common. I do have a problem with them overdoing it to the degree they have.
Do you really want the ST to be so closely based off the plot of the OT? What if they do 10, 11, and 12?
Are they damned if they do, damned if they don't if 10, 11, and 12 are not almost carbon copies of the OT plot?
If that's the case, I'm thinking it would be disastrous to do 10, 11, and 12.

What if instead of destroying the entire Republic in one fell swoop, there was a sizeable force at the resistance base to give the First Order a run for it's money?
All of a sudden, you don't need this escape sequence in which hyperspace is neutralized. You don't need to go find an outside potential ally who then betrays you.
What if Luke Skywalker isn't a secluded hermit. That isn't necessary for a SW film, and I'm not certain fans were asking for that. What if instead of Kylo Wren asking Rey to join him, he's dead set on killing her?

SW fans aren't all that different from other movie goers. They want a strong plot, which should be fairly original for each individual film unless it's a reboot, chemistry between the actors, great visuals and action. By 1977 standards, the original trilogy largely delivered that. People complained about ewoks a lot, and I personally believe they were a questionable choice.

Ever since then, the writing has received high criticism largely because SW has such wealth behind it, that the writers can afford to be lazy, or they can afford to rush, or they can afford to add Jar jar. George Lucas was struggling in 1977, and he wanted to make a film that was acceptable and enjoyable to the most people so that he would gain the backing to finish his trilogy. After experiencing ridiculous amounts of success, he and others who have recently taken over the narrative, have had the luxury of focusing less on writing in favor of other elements of the production process.

 

Ironically - Colin Tomorrow on the Jurassic World series.

That apparently simple concept is missing so far in the ST. Its quite clear that the 2 movies we've seen so far don't even feel similar. Even putting aside plot points - they don't even have the same tone. When creating a series of movies - its more than fair to expect them all to feel the same - regardless of where the story goes. And for a series that already has 7 parts previously, to change up everything on the 8th is ridiculous.

 

Zero The Hutt greatest Hutt of All Time should have been code breaker. Problem solved.

 

I don' think anyone is reasonably arguing about planning everything out in advance. Lucas never did but he had his own vision. What we don't know is that is there a vision here besides making money? That it's corporate film-making is a non-starter. We know that is the case and accept that as well as that the directors have a kind of freedom but know (or should know) the base thing they have to deliver.

Now if we knew that they had planned out at some point a broad arc that TFA was to totally celebrate Star Wars (more specifically the OT but the PT as well) while TLJ was to concurrently celebrate AND tear it down (more specifically the OT by using the PT story aspects) then fine. They did it well.

Except they themselves say that is not the case and it's more of a hand-off situation and JJ didn't really know what RJ was going to do and now RJ doesn't know what JJ is going to do.

Optimally VII would not have come out until at least May 2016 or even better Dec 2016. That simply was a no go. They wanted it May 2015 and were forced to push it back to Dec 2015. They simply needed time to make TFA that didn't exist. To go from virtual scratch to a movie in 3 years for something this colossal meant that there was going to be an inordinate amount of recycling of ideas and designs without time to suitably find variations (which they probably didn't want to do anyway.)

 

There's something I was thinking about the relation between TFA and TLJ. At some point in TFA Snoke says that Kylo needs to be brought to him to finish his training. But we see no actual training in TLJ.

 

I disagree. Many people, including the youtuber above, are missing a key fact. Reylo has always been the endgame. Don't blame JJ if you didn't figure out what was happening in TFA. Many of us did see it, and so we were not surprised at all at Rey Random, the force bond, Kylo and Rey teaming up to defeat Snoke, etc. TLJ flows perfectly from TFA in that regard.

JJ made the only next generation Skywalker the trilogy's villian, had him commit patricide, and then set up a romance between him and the heroine. If that isn't risky, I don't know what is. There's no doubt in my mind that JJ had a general idea of where Rey and Kylo's relationship would go. This is the central relationship of the trilogy, as important as Luke/Vader to the OT.

As to Luke, I agree with the video that Luke's lightsaber toss is an insult to TFA's final scene. But Luke's overall character arc flows directly from TFA.

The nonforce character arcs are obviously wide open. Directors need some freedom to be creative.

 

I want the Special Edition versions of TFA and TLJ, with changes to about 80% of the plot/character arcs/story so that everything would make sense as stand-alone films, as a Sequel Trilogy and the saga as a whole. But apparently it's too much to ask of those people at Lucasfilm.

PS. Could we get those versions for next Christmas?

 

ST Jar Jar Binks?

 

I don't think he missed that. The point was the connection.

The point was that he couldn't tell us because he didn't know either. By their own admission they didn't know the backstory or the after story.

Why is Luke seemingly waiting for Rey in his Jedi robes and why the look on his face. The look that TLJ cuts out? There is no reason for Luke to be waiting or wearing his robes. If it was truly connected then Rey would come upon a shocked and surprised Luke as he's fishing while in his outlander garb.

We knew their was a bond between Rey and Ren. Rey is clearly not random. Otherwise why would she be dreaming about the island or have unbelievable power potential beyond anyone we've ever seen including Anakin. Yoda was random, Qui-Gon was random, Obi-Wan was random. Rey is random like Anakin was random.

I just don't see the risk. As soon as we saw the unnamed Kylo Ren in that first teaser I think the chances that wasn't Leia and Han's son was next to zero. Anakin became a villain so his grandson becoming one was no huge departure especially since Luke would train him and do the reset. I wouldn't say there is a romance betweeen Rey and Ren but a bond through the Force.

Except we don't know that RJ did what JJ might have done.

I don't see how. TFA's final scene and TLJ first scene with Luke doesn't even match up. They are joined but rather uncomfortably. If it does flow then that would mean that they had a plan which they have said repeatedly they didn't.

 

The scene where Luke immediately changes from the tan Jedi robes to the dark clothing he wears for most of the rest of the film is a good indication of the lack of planning. Johnson immediately has to change the way Luke looks at the end of TFA for Luke to fit the story he wants to tell. If this had all been planned out ahead of time Luke would've had the dark clothing on at the end of TFA. Otherwise there's zero purpose in having a scene where Luke changes clothes.

They didn't plan out this trilogy and that is a shame. The storytelling is incosistent and muddled. The plot points set up in TFA and the things that TFA emphasises as being important are retroactively made completely unimportant in TLJ. It is a clear indication of the lack of foresight and planning that went into making the new trilogy of Star Wars movies. It's insane.

I'll use one example to illustrate my point. Kylo Ren. In TFA I got the impression that he wanted to BE Darth Vader, was praying to the Vader mask, saw Vader as an icon, "You will never be as strong as Darth Vader" ect. In TLJ, Kylo Ren is on this whole "Let the past die" train the entire time. Which one is it? What happened to cause his Vader loving and what caused him to fall out of love with Vader? This is but a minor example of the inconsistencies in character and plot that pepper this trilogy.

 

RJ just took a big middle finger to the people with expectations from TFA.

 

I think the problem is that you don't plan for the sequel before the first movie is even out let alone begin writing it before the 1st movie is even out. As you see with TLJ rian is repeating the same beats of character development from TFA which is again obvious here but money and the rush rush mindset of disney has hurt this franchise terribly

 

Good point. Basically one day earlier he's a Sith-like disciple of Sidious-like Snoke who's power he is almost totally in (Leia and Han blame Snoke's powers for this). It's not that it can't happen that he totally turns on Snoke and abandons his worship of this grand-father's Vader persona but it literally happens in hours. Give it some time between the two and then you can seed in the attitude change.

Telling is that JJ sets it up being about Snoke's powers while in TLJ Luke says it was really him not Snoke. RJ seemed to make it TLJ's mission to undermine the story that TFA set up.

I like TLJ. I think it's the best of the new era movies so far but as a sequel to TFA the only conclusions I can come to was that the point was to specifically eradicate the direction of TFA. TFA was a poor set-up to TLJ in that sense but that is the purpose of having some sort of plan to follow properly on.

There is no reason to believe that IX won't basically ignore most of TLJ and do the story that JJ had in mind before. It's not like it can't be done. As has been said if JJ wants Snoke back there is no problem in doing so. Want to really reveal Rey's parents? No problem. Want Kylo to go back to bowing to the helmet? No problem.

Again I think TLJ is excellent BUT I can't really argue these points.

It's like TFA and TLJ are in parallel universes. TLJ is not the sequel to TFA and TFA is not the movie before TLJ.

 

Good points. I hadn't considered the issue about his clothing. At least he changes back into the white/tan robes for the end. All I can offer on that point is if you are home alone--sometimes you're in really comfortable sweatpants/sweatshirt type clothing and sometimes you wear real clothing (even if you aren't going out later / not having people over). Rey just caught him at a time when he was wearing his better outfit.

Interesting on Ren's attitudes and the lack of a time jump doesn't help here. With that said, in both films he is a very confused and conflicted character. Holding two contradictory ideas is not totally out of character. Much of his--"let the past die" is both him grappling with killing his father and meant as a direct appeal to Rey. It is unclear what he truly believes, if anything. He is in flux.

 

You don't see the risk in a Reylo style romance? The topic was so toxic on this board that it was banned. Think about that for a minute. The key dynamic, in the trilogy's central relationship, could not even be discussed on the main board for Star Wars' fans. It would be like banning any discussion of Luke and Vader after ANH.

As for Luke, JJ put him on a planet, in exile, while his sister and the entire Republic's lives were at stake. They desparately needed him, and he had vanished. As seen from the final scene of TFA, he is fine physically. So why is he hiding out on an obsure planet? There aren't many good explanations for that. Rian found one that works--Luke cut himself off from the force after the Academy killings.

 

someone on here said this trilogy is of Kylo as a reverse Anakin which is really appealing to me....I agree with a lot of the critiques leveled in this thread but I still think they've laid enough groundwork to salvage it with some smart choices in 9.

-T

 

I don't see a romance. I see a bond between two people who share the same abilities that no one else in the universe has like they do. They have strength unlike any others plus unlike Sidious and Anakin and Vader and Luke are not that far away in age.

The dynamic actually in the movies wasn't. The possible one after TFA was.

There are various explanations and variations that can be used. He's dead and a Force ghost. He's trapped there. He's guarding a prisoner. He's training new Jedi in secret and seclusion. He's waiting there for Rey specifically. He's waiting there for someone who turns out to be Rey. He's waiting for someone and it's not Rey. He is actually the evil all along and there is no Snoke. He's waiting for the right moment that he feels he can return. He's reassessing his way compared to the Jedi. He wants to find the original Jedi way.

There are any number of possibilities. What RJ had is just one. The point is that it serves Rey and Ren paralleling them against Luke. The Skywalker child of the Force destroyed his faith in himself and the Jedi while Rey who is somewhat more akin to the way the Jedi were before (save for her awesome powers) is the one that got him back to the right path.

 

Except the relationship between Vader and Luke is simple in ANH. Darth Vader killed his father and Obi-Wan Kenobi; Luke hates him and wants revenge. Simple as Batman vs the Joker, Superman vs Lex Luthor, and Sherlock Holmes vs Professor Moriarty. Few if not none were speculating Luke and Darth Vader would become lovers. Which is rather sad for Kylo Ren and Rey's relationship since the first thing that many people thought about when they see a man and a woman is that they must be lovers and thus ship.

In fact, the very notion that a heterosexual relationship between a hero and a villain was outright banned from board discussion (something that doesn't usually happen) tells me that Reylo was far more toxic and controversial than Lucasfilm would risk selling. It's a time ticking bomb of PR headaches and disaster, and the reason why TLJ didn't set it off because they went with the sensible option of having Rey reject the mass murdering Kylo Ren and shut him out forever after he emotionally abused her by calling her a nobody who should depend on him.

JJ Abrams would be a fool to reverse that status quo and make them lovers after two films of Kylo Ren choosing evil and being a monster all the time.

 

Be prepared for a shock in Episode IX, that's all I can say. JJ is the original Reylo. He set this in motion with TFA. As early as 2013, he said the trilogy would have a central romance.

 

Just like how Man of Steel made Superman kill Zod? Like how Batman v Superman was all dark and hopeless, made Batman kill, and had Doomsday kill Superman? Like every Shamalyan Twist in movies?

Just because it's a twist doesn't make it good. You can make a twist revealing that half of the Star Wars characters were actually Broccoli and the other half of cast were survivors of an apocalypse. But it would suck and be panned by everyone.

Lucas did not made Darth Vader Luke's father because he wanted a twist. Lucas did that because he wanted Vader to be a convincing tempter of the Dark Side for Luke and realized that Vader has no leverage over him. He did that twist to advance the characters. That's why he completely rejected his "ultimate twist" in ROTJ of having Luke suddenly turn evil and become the new Darth Vader and Emperor who kills all his friends. It simply wouldn't work.

You know what kind of controversial Reylo can cause. Especially the implications of real life. Why do you think it was banned in the first place? Would Disney want to be remembered for the Reylo controversy in Star Wars after trying to do their hardest to defuse the notion that Beauty and the Beast was romanticizing Stockholm Syndrome?

 

If you twist for twist's sakes you just get tied up in knots that you can't undo convincingly.

 

I think we agree that Reylo is controversial. That was my whole point. JJ's decision to set this up is a huge risk, for the reasons you cite. Yet Reylo is now canon, and the critical response was very positive. As for those denying any romance between Rey and Kylo, Rian has confirmed that Rey and Kylo's relationship in TLJ was a romantic drama.