ST The Cohesion/Direction/Structure Of The ST & It's Pros & Cons

Do you know what happens when the risk backfires and the controversy becomes toxic? It destroys the film's reception and sinks the profits.

Imagine what happens if they made Rey and Kylo Ren lovers on screen in TLJ instead of Rey rejecting Kylo Ren for still being a monster?

One editorial article will accuse Lucasfilm and Disney for romanticizing an abusive relationship. Then others will follow suit and considering the #MeToo social climate, it's a perfect storm that could bring Disney into bigger headaches than they want. The controversy will overshadow the film and the general audience will start whispering to each other about it. There's a reason why it's called a risk.

Look at EA's risk with the Loot Crate reward system in Battlefront II. Look at the controversy there and see how it was able to bring down the once untouchable gaming titan. Look at how Disney tries PR damage control on this game, because they fear it will negatively affect the Star Wars hype when TLJ is around the corner. This is what happens when a risk backfires.

And look at Passengers staring Chris Pratt and Jennifer Lawerence to see what happens when a controversial romance began to overshadow the movie itself. No such thing as bad publicity? It was thanks to bad publicity that destroyed the film's chances at the box office.

 

With him set up as the main bad guy going into IX, I think by now it should be clear what he believes. If we don't understand why our main villain is doing the things he does, we cannot be invested in the outcome of his story.

 

To me, there is no problem, or lack of cohesion and planning. I've seen TLJ three times, will be going again a couple of times this weekend, and love the story, love how it flows from TFA with no plot holes and sets up a very intriguing episode IX that really, nobody has any clue what is/could possibly happen.

 

I will preface this by saying that I like TLJ, have enjoyed it more each of the three times I’ve seen it, and believe that it contains some of the best acting and most emotionally affecting moments in any Star Wars film. I think Rian nailed it with Luke/Rey, Rey/Kylo, Rey’s parentage, and Luke’s end.

That said, I have to admit that before the film was released, I brushed aside concerns about the lack of a single cohesive vision. But I do think it’s an issue now. TLJ is a good film, but it’s not a second act of a trilogy, and really doesn’t make much of an effort to pave the way to IX. It felt more like Episode VII Part 2 than Episode VIII. I have no idea how JJ is supposed to re-start the ST and end it in the same film. I’m starting to think they should consider doing IX in two parts.

What really struck me was the self-conscious satire of TFA. E.g., lightsaber toss, Kylo’s “ridiculous” mask, Snoke’s ROTJ Emperor throne room pastiche, etc. Some of the “satirical” stuff has now been framed as the film being bold and transgressive, which is lazy nonsense. (There are plenty of bold choices in TLJ that *do* work.) Poking fun at 40-year old SW cliches is one thing; satirizing TFA two years after it was released is bizzare, and bordering on hackery. It surprised me coming from RJ, who comes across as a thoughtful, self-effacing guy. He made a great movie, but it did feel at times like he had had fallen in love with his own cleverness. I found the flippant attitude towards TFA off-putting, especially given the fact that TLJ, despite its accomplishments, also had some really lazy, passionless writing. The Finn and Rose stuff, which I had high hopes for, was often cringe-inducing. I felt embarrassed for KMT and Boyega having to deliver some of that flaccid dialogue. Good grief. Which is to say: If you’re going to be snotty about the first chapter *OF THE TRILOGY YOUR FILM IS A PART OF,* you better have made a close to perfect film, and it better be superior to its predecessor, which in this instance is very much an open question.

It makes me wonder what exactly is going on at LF/Disney. I believe it’s commonly accepted that there was some tension between LF and Bad Robot during the production of TFA. I’ve also seen comments from Pablo Hidalgo (and obviously he’s only one guy) indicating that he is not a huge fan of TFA. The MSW podcast has gotten into this a few times during production of TLJ, with the upshot being that the Story Group had a much better relationship with RJ than JJ. And I know that RJ has talked about having weekly or twice weekly meetings with the Story Group while he was writing TLJ. So, it occuredbto me that if RJ wasnt crazy about aspects of TFA, and he was workshopping his ideas with LF people, he probably wasn’t getting a huge amount of pushback when the script took shots at TFA. Perhaps some of it is was actively encouraged. TLJ does, at times, feel like the product of a very talented but still maturing director who was getting a lot of smoke blown up his posterior exhaust vent.

What makes it all particularly odd is that (1) RJ is creating a TRILOGY for LF, so he’s not just some one and done guy who made his film and split; and (2) JJ is now back for IX. It’s just hard to figure, and makes me wonder who really made the decision to bring JJ back for IX.

In any event, given the incongruities between TFA and TLJ, I think it’s extremely fortunate that JJ is now going to have a chance to wrap up the series. He’s got his work cut out for him, but I can’t imagine anyone who’s better positioned to succeed. If it were Treverrow, I’d be petrified.

 

This thread is like reading an Agatha Christie novel and complaining on the middle chapter that Poirot still haven't managed to solve the mystery.

 

What’s the mystery? Why do we need another film?

 

How many of these threads do we need?

Anyway, less was done "on the fly" than most think. The "Art of the Last Jedi" book says that most of the concept art was drawn up in 2014 with the name "Kira" still plastered to it. That was before TFA was even finished filming, let alone shown. Who would allow a whole new writer to write a sequel to a movie that hasn't even finished filming? Rian had NO idea how anything would look visually let alone emotionally. The only way a screenplay sequel can be done is if it is done by the same person who wrote the predecessor. That's the only way to have emotional and conceptual continuity.

Therefore, I'd suspect that JJ (or at least the story group) had more say in what was going to happen than we think.

JJ's doing IX. It's a little odd that he would create all of these mysterious plotlines without an idea about why they exist and where they should go. Actually, it's pretty much impossible to write anything mysterious without an idea about where it is to go. Thus, with him making IX, it would make sense that he cannot just abandon those ideas. Likewise, Rian could create what he did within a framework of where JJ was planning for everything to end up.

They may have really liked how Rian set up his part of the trilogy by taking people off the scent of what really happens. He KNEW as did Disney, LFL, and JJ that people would be talking about the controversy also knownig damn well that teh conclusion will wrap it all up nicely in a nice holiday bow.

 

With Rey, it's not so much "parentage", per se, but the fact that she was built up to be somebody of importance.

She didn't have to be a Skywalker, Solo, Kenobi, Palpatine, or Calrissian, but consider the following from TFA:
- Kylo Ren is alarmed upon hearing of a girl on Jakku, highly suggestive that he has some prior knowledge of Rey
- The Milennium Falcon is parked on the same world where Rey has been growing up
- Maz Kanata is intrigued by Rey's presence
- The Skywalker lightsaber calls to Rey specifically
- Luke views Rey with a pained and sorrowful expression, also implying that he has some prior knowledge of her

All of these suggest at the very least that Rey had some connection to the OT heroes and key ST players. If not a direct descendent, perhaps a former student of Luke's or something else.

JJ Abrams set up a number of possibilities (though we're right to be skeptical of his interest or ability to see them through to conclusion), but where we're left now suggests that all of those clues were misdirection, which is highly unsatisfying. That said, there is still plenty of room for retconning, e.g.
- Kylo was outright lying about Rey's parents, and he either knows the truth or has no idea
- The "parents" Kylo refers to were really guardians/caretakers in the mold of Owen and Beru, and her true heritage is something different and more meaningful like Luke or Anakin

So the book is far from closed, but the story does seem to be veering around in a way that's different than merely the Vader/Leia revelations in the OT. We'll see.

 

It becomes pointless if we just try and dismiss each others opinions like that, I mean you could throw the same argument at "prequel haters" and praise of the new films. Personally I think both the PT and ST have serious flaws with Rogue One being significantly better than either more on the level of the originals, not sure which "camp" this puts me in.

I would add as well that I tend to think that dispite the Ewoks ROTJ is overall actually pretty similar in its aim to ESB having a more adult tone than the PT and ST. That tone not pushing too hard to try and entertain at the expense of gravity is really a big part of way the OT has lasted as well as it has.

 

The OT wasn’t planned out in advance. And perhaps the PT and ST. Yeah, at various times he may had X amount of outlines. But he changes. He changes with the films and TCW after films are finished. And as Rian said, he outlines and outlines and takes notes. So even if every film seems improvized, they’re not. And JH stayed on board as executive producer for VIII, initially for IX, and had input. As did the Story Group.

 

Hi, everyone. I'm new to the forum and enjoying the ST-TLJ related discussions.
Thanks.

I'd say it looks like the planning for this new trilogy was to follow slavishly the OT plot with a mix of new & old characters (based partially on previous ideas by GL?), and a mix of directors which have been entrusted with opposite purposes:

JJ's mission in the first movie being a sickly fan service, while RJ's in the following being an unsettling fan DISservice.

First pleasing, then shocking, then...?

An authorial game of sorts between directors that has resulted in outright rivalry, fictionally speaking, with the main characters and the whole storyline of the ST to pay the costs.

The spite on the face of Luke drinking blue milk, says it all, or the stupor on Hux's in the first scene of TLJ. Not to mention the omnipresent smile of Rey in TFA, and the complete absence of it in TLJ.

I'm more intrigued to contemplate, in IX, how the authors will solve this narrative dead end, than to discover the fate of the protagonists themselves.

Inviato dal mio GT-I9300 utilizzando Tapatalk

 

Awesome post!

Largely agree. To me it's close to but not equal of ROTS' levels at times.

Exactly my thinking. The ST is 2/3rd's over, has just started and is already over at the same time!

I wonder about that. Did he really entirely know what he was doing or did he not quite realize how what he might have thought was submerged wasn't quite as much as he thought?
I have said that TLJ is both totally true to Lucas' approach to Star Wars (moreso than TFA) but also against it as a subversive, satirical comedy. Maybe he thought people wouldn't notice most of it between the other scenes?

Great point! I hadn't considered that angle. I wonder if KK would realize this? Did RJ sneak all this stuff underneath and she never noticed? It falls on her to co-ordinate between directors. On the other hand maybe she encouraged it.

They never imagined that JJ would be back for IX and now that he is you really have to wonder what is going on behind the scenes. JJ has full control now. They are up against it and anything JJ wants he gets. The future of the ST is totally in JJ's hands now and after the pushback on TLJ they don't want that pushback on IX.

I am rooting for JJ to do the best thing he's ever done in his movie and TV life. This trilogy needs it. As I've said before, I like TFA, I think TLJ is excellent but as a trilogy I see no real direction. It's two separate movies with two visions of Star Wars that don't flow together very well. TLJ isn't the sequel to the ST that JJ set-up and TFA doesn't fit well into the version of the ST that RJ set-up.

As you say it's like we've got two VII's and are waiting for VIII and IX.

If CT was doing IX then we would probably have a third version of the ST so at least with JJ back he can continue his ST from TFA and largely ignore VIII if he so chooses outside of some basic character and plot points. Other than that it's left very much open.

 

No it's nothing like that at all.

 

The rumor is exactly what you said, Rian Johnson played nice with the Lucasfilm people who disliked JJ because he largely ignored them. In JJ’s defense he had to move quickly after Michael Arndt was fired, he only had a month or two to deliver a draft of the script with Larry Kasdan to Bob Iger so he was racing against the clock. But the Lucasfilm people and the Bad Robot people certainly did not get along and the fact that he was brought back shows their desperation after the rash of firings over the summer.

 

Rayne Roberts also deleted a tweet in which she blamed the backlash that TLJ is getting to nostalgic fans.

 

Ah yes the whole "we're going to blame fan nostalgia, while our entire movie is constantly wallowing in nostalgia and ends basically back where we were 30+ years ago."

LF, pot meet kettle.

 

Yes it is, and you are proving it.

Unless you have leaks from EP IX and know how the story will continue.

 

Ouch. That hurt.

 

I looked past the issues cause TLJ hit the right notes for me overall but Disney should have penned the Trilogy before JJ rolled the cameras & said Rian could tweak here & there but the overall arc stays the same apart form dealing with Leia's death of course.....

 

Never heard of her but I assumed before looking her up that she was part of the Story Group.

Blaming nostalgic fans is kind of bizarre when the entirety of TFA was based on it.

So does that indeed mean that she really didn't like TFA?

Quite.

She does realize that both TFA and TLJ are using the same methodology that Lucas used when making all the movies right? The prequels in particular and TLJ even more particularly does it along the lines that Lucas did though in it's satirical comedic lines whereas Lucas did it for as Kyle Newman calls it "objective myth"

 

Agreed. And since I went on way more than I thought, I'll give a

TL;DR: TFA and TLJ aren't really all that out of step with each other. Also, the resolution to this "advance planning vs. blank slate" paradox lies in the enormous difference between having an idea for a story and having 3 screenplays for 3 movies.

Now, continue on if you can tolerate self-indulgent verbosity.

Part 1: These episodes aren't out of step with each other.

1. Han straight up told us that Luke walked away because he blamed himself for the destruction of the academy. That must have been a hard decision, so should we have really expected Luke to be ready to hop right into it when someone he's never met shows up on his door and holds up the symbol of everything he's sacrificed so much to walk away from?

2. There's a shot in Rey's home of a wilting flower and what looks like a gold bell sitting on a table. Is that carefully-framed foreground homage to Beauty and the Beast just an accident? Intentional misdirection that Rian decided, all on his own, to instead repurpose into intentional foreshadowing? Just an easter egg to the new Disney overlords? Or, could it maybe be that there's a plan at work, here?

3. Kylo told us that he was all about finishing what Vader started. You mean, like completing Vader's greatest unfulfilled ambition, to kill his master and become lord of the galaxy?

4. The big one: all of the theorizing about Rey's parents ... the endless discussions. I had fun with them! Still, the fact that those debates existed and went on as long as they did means it would be extremely disingenuous to suggest that TFA didn't drop at least some significant hints that Rey's parents would turn out to be who they turned out to be. There were definitely reasons why, to some of us, "Rey Random" felt right, and all other answers felt wrong. We watched the same movie.

5. Finn woke up on the Raddus with exactly the same attitude he had on Starkiller base. "I'm just here for Rey." Considering that he had spent the interim unconscious, that's sensible. His arc still had some distance to go to get him to being actually committed to the Resistance.

6. Snoke. JJ set him up to be the trilogy's big bad. But did he really? I mean, we all assumed he would be (at least until the last few tv spots started giving a few people a few hunches). "Reminds me of Palpatine, therefore IS the new Palpatine." Instead, Snoke was just the guy who Kylo had to kill to get the throne. I've gotta ask: Was there really anything in TFA that ought to convince us that JJ saw Snoke as someone more important than that? If so, what? Or did we just get caught assuming?

So where, really, is this huge deviation from JJ?

Part 2: How I think the creative process at Lucasfilm works.

First, you've gotta take what the creative team says in interviews with a grain of salt. They're trying to give us a sense of what the creative process is like, but without just spilling their guts about what has and has not been set up and/or paid off yet. That produces some intentional vagueness.

Sometimes I cynically feel like some fans don't realize that there is a huge, gaping middle ground between "oh, we're just completely making this up as we go; in fact, we only just started thinking about these movies five minutes before we sat down in front of the keyboard to write the first draft" and "George Lucas has had 9 screenplays in his desk drawer since 1975." Both extremes are ridiculous, so it's obviously somewhere between the two.

So, how absolutely literally should we take "blank slate"?

Here's what I consider extremely likely to be true: Lucasfilm had a concept for the sequel trilogy that could probably be written on a single page (not necessarily double-spaced): very general descriptions of the main protagonist and villian, and perhaps a few very crucial supporting characters, a sense of what their relationships with each other should be like, some of the core themes that should be addressed, and where we should get to by the end. Basically, the stuff that tells you The Big Picture of what the new trilogy is about. (Dipping into conspiracy-style speculation, I think they're being cagey about the existence of this plan because they have reasons not to make too big a deal about where, and by "where" I mean "WHO", it actually came from.)

Now, if you were in the position of JJ and Rian, and you were brought in to take this single page of ideas and transform it into 6-7 hours worth of good movies, that slate would look pretty darn blank. There would be a huge amount of work to do, and a vast number of creative decisions to make. Yes, there's a plan ... a goal that everyone is working towards. But the screenplay isn't just going to fall from the sky. Someone has to actually sit down and write the dang thing (starting with a blinking cursor on an empty computer screen ... blank slate), and no one is going to spend the weeks and weeks it will take to do that before the time comes when it needs to be done.

So yeah, Rian can say truthfully that what will happen in Ep 9 is out of his hands, just as Ep 8 was out of JJ's. But don't think for a second the two of them haven't been collaborating with each other and the story group. (JJ was credited as an Executive Producer on TLJ, for crying out loud!) They're working together to get a story told, and they both know The Big Picture. The individual story beats, scenes, detailed character arcs, action setpieces, dialogue, settings, and all the other nitty gritty details that transform an idea for a story into an actual thing that we can watch on a screen, will be worked out as they go, and offer a ton of room for Rian and JJ to stretch their own creative muscles and display their own visions, while still moving faithfully forward on The Big Picture.

Sure, I suppose Rian or JJ could theoretically stab each other in the back by taking a sudden crazy left turn. ("Oh no! Rey died in a shuttle accident between episodes!") But really, they couldn't, because Lucasfilm has conclusively shown us that the creative freedom they're giving these filmmakers may be extensive, but it's not endless. Lord and Miller, anyone? Trevorrow? Were they given a "blank slate"?The message to these writers and directors is "Go for it! Unleash all your creative powers! We can't wait to hear your ideas! But also, if we're dissatisfied with your stuff, we may reconsider our arrangement, because that's the way 'employment' works."

And finally, why would either Rian or JJ even want to backstab the other? They're on the same team, getting paid by the same people, and they share the goal to make this a good trilogy. That means taking the baton when the last guy hands it off and then following through to the very best of their ability. Neither of them benefits from making the trilogy a disjointed mess.

 

It was said in the Box Office thread that Kathleen Kennedy and JJ stepped in telling Rian that the script needed a rewrite, with more findings and poe? If true that would make sense as to why the picture lacks focus.

 

it turns out he just needed to kill a girl in order to complete his training..................................


I watched TFA last night and maz kanata is all spiritual and talking about the fight between good an evil and blah blah blah. Yet in TLJ she's all like "yeah whatever i can't help you i have to shoot other people.". Like...what?! No interest in an established character so, we just bench them? Seriously, watch maz's scenes in TFA, then watch/think about her cameo in TLJ.

 

This thread is a moot point without first seeing Episode IX. Without reading the posts here my guess is that this is YET ANOTHER BASHING thread. FWIW, I think the decisions to throw away the derivative elements of TFA (Snoke/palpating, Rey’s mysterious parentage, Kylo/Vader similarities) were the very reason I loved TLJ! Where one sees dissonance I see bold creative choices!