The Comic Book Character Draft Episode VIII: The Secret Draft *congrats, Loyal!!*

Discussion in 'Archive: Census and Games' started by EmpireForever, May 20, 2009.

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  1. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    Well, you know, that's what Firestorm does. And he can materialize things much, much stronger than cement. If Juggs can't fight, he can't fight. And in this scenario, no one will ever be coming to help him out of it, so... yeah. And that's not really the only option Firestorm has. Ridiculously versatile, that guy.

    I mean, hey, before you were fine with Gorgon turning people into stone left and right and that being a "win". And even though many beings of immense power (especially mystical power) wouldn't actually be killed by that, you still thought it was good enough. How would this be different from that?
  2. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    Well, I dunno, I tend to think turning people to stone kills them, unless they're mystically revived. Or don't need a heartbeat, or something.

    I also recall you not letting GOrgon turn Hyperion into stone. Actually he didn't really turn much of anyone into stone in that draft. And then I was the one who suggested getting rid of him.

    I don't care which way the ruling is. Personally I'm fine with cement-trapping being a victory. I just wanted some thoughts.
  3. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    First, what can Firestorm do to Juggernaut... nothing. Absolutely nothing beside imprison him. I personally don't believe that's a win. If Juggernaut is unaffected, and just chilling in some super dense calcium carbonite, I don't think FS has won. Also, unless Majestic can block telepathy, one of the fastest telepaths has a chance.
  4. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    Kyle Rayner vs. Lobo (prep) - I've made my arguments for this.
    Karate Kid vs. Goblin Queen - Ditto
    Firestorm vs. Juggernaut - If you can't knock someone unconsious, they aren't losing. If ring out doesn't count as a lost, immobilization doesn't either. IMO
    Black Panther (prepped) vs. Moonstone/Solomon Grundy - Sure prepped him is good, but Moonstone's double moonstone gravity powers can slow him down enough for SG to pound him.
    Allen the Alien vs. Apocalypse (prepped) - Apoc prepped is the man
    Wonder Woman vs. Atrocitus-Before the Red Ring he took on a rookie Hal and a Sinestro. With the ring he is a beast, and beat Hal, even though the red trumps green. I just think his durability, strength, and ring will allow him the win.
    Duplikate/Immortal vs. Solomon Forfeit
    Majestic (prepped)vs. Shadow King - With prep, I still don't think he could stop telepathy. SK is the best at taking someone's mind
  5. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, I wasn't convinced by Gorgon at all. I just saw too many example of characters (like Etrigan, WW and, yep, Superman) getting turned to stone and then just somehow busting out of it. And it wasn't like they were just encased in stone, supposedly they were completely turned to stone, inside and out. *shrug*

    It's just that I could easily see Firestorm encasing Juggs in a solid cube of... whatever that DC equivalent of adamantium is (forget the name), and then, based on the circumstances of our little draft universe, he's pretty much there for eternity. I don't see how that's not a win. Some characters would have the means to get out of something like that. But not Juggers.
  6. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    No I understand, but that's no better than blink blinking someone to a pocket dimension they can never get out of. Is that a win?
  7. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    o_O Shocking. Truly. ;)

    I certainly don't agree with your arguments for Lobo.

    You're very much underestimating how simple it would be for Panther to neutralize the stones with prep.

    You've brought up that Atrocitus/Rookie Hal and Sinestro fight before, and it's still nowhere near as impressive as you're making it out to be. Yeah, I remember how because he was able to lift a large construction machine, that made him as strong as... who was that again? The Hulk? Come on, be serious. And he may have beaten Hal, but that's beacuse the red ring has natural advantages over green rings. Luckily for Diana, she's not a Green Lantern.

    And have you even seen Majestic's best speed feats? Majestic could kick his ass 50 times over before SK can even form a thought. That one is soooooo not in doubt.

    EDIT: It's not the same thing. Firestorm's example does not involve battlefield removal. And again, he has other options. That's just the most obvious one.
  8. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    Ok, Majestic was stretch, I'll give you that. But Lobo and Atrocitus aren't. And whatever BP has to neutralize the stones, is just leaving more time for SG to thump him.
  9. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 6
    The stones can be neutralized with a simple sonic attack set to the right frequency iirc, it's not like it would be a hard thing to take out Moonstone really.

    Still, I do think that Grundy would be the harder one to take down, but then again we have seen some very crazy physical non-prep feats from T'Challa...it isn't out of the realm of possibility that he can easily out fight Grundy H2H.

    Still don't see a peak level Kyle being taken down by Lobo, even if Lobo has time to prep with weapons....most of which are going to be easy to defend with the use of a power ring. Peak Kyle is no where near as horrible as he is being made out to be, and I say this as a die hard Lantern hater.

    Oh yeah, and Majestic I don't really see having a hard time coming up with something to neutralize Shadow King's telepathy. Gotta remember what universe SK comes from, Marvel, the one that allows characters to use a simple metal helmet in order to become impervious to telepathy....I think prep god Majestic could concieve of something better than that.
  10. vrakatar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2009
    star 1
    You guys know I'm a big Panther fan, but he probably has a file on how to take out Moonstone. He's much faster than Grundy, and if Green Arrow found a way to beat Grundy, the Panther certainly can.
  11. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    Maybe later tonight I can look into Grundy some more. I'm not entirely sure about that one, and I haven't had much time to do anything like look up comic book characters. Anyway.

    Kyle Rayner vs. Lobo (prep)

    I don't have any doubts about this one at all. See Lobo's respect thread, where his pimp is trying to talk him up to Hal Jordan's level because he was able to break through some of his constructs -- the only problem with this is that, at the time, Hal is distracted trying to save the lives of thousands of people by keeping an entire fleet of spaceships flying. I happen to think you can't call John better than Kyle, but that's just me. Either way, even with prep, there's nothing Lobo can do that's going to put Kyle away.

    Karate Kid vs. Goblin Queen

    No comment.

    Firestorm vs. Juggernaut

    It's basically a pin, if you ask me. If Juggernaut can't get out of it (unlike the time against Iceman), it should be considered defeat.

    Black Panther (prepped) vs. Moonstone/Solomon Grundy

    I'll get back to you.

    Allen the Alien vs. Apocalypse (prepped)

    Wonder Woman vs. Atrocitus

    Powerful, with the ring, yeah. Skilled? Refined? Not that I've seen. Just because he's not raging all over the place like every other red lantern doesn't make him a skilled combatant. Against someone like Diana? That's going to cost you. I'll just double check this one again. If I have time.

    Duplikate/Immortal vs. Solomon Forfeit

    Majestic (prepped) vs. Shadow King

    I'll just bring up that everything I've ever heard about Shadow King is hearsay, and I've yet to see one single bit of evidence besides text that he is any good in the slightest. I'm willing to make some assumptions based on that, but that Majestic doesn't have what it takes to stop him? No.


    Vitrumite Prison
  12. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    Wow, blatant disrespect of Lobo. Egregious opinion of Lobo prepped. I mean, Lobo is fast, strong, ruthless, skilled, intelligent and on a Superman level. Plus with prep he has 24 hours, the eye of Ekron, his bicycle... Come on, I really don't see Kyle beating him at all. When you look at the people Kyle has lost to, and loko at the people Lobo has beat, come on. Unless we're using Kyle mixed with one of the entities (which I'm sure we're not) then this isn't a win for Kyle.

    Also, so Juggernaut can not be harmed, at all, and still lose. That's pretty much like a character running away the whole fight. Lets say we have a person like invicible speed, but no strength v Abomination. Could never beat him, but could run away the whole fight, or run in circles. That's basically the same thing. Firestorm can't do anything to Juggernaut, nothing. But just because he can imprison him he wins, that's even worse than someone throwing him into the sun imo.

  13. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 6
    This might be part of your problem. You cannot look at the people Kyle lost to and at the same time look at the people Lobo has beat, nor can you reverse that and look at who Kyle beat and who Lobo lost to.

    You have to look at each of their peaks, and really you should know this by now so I am not really sure why you are insisting that people look at Lobo's best showings while at the same time ignoring Kyles.

    Kyles peak, even without being bonded to an entity like Paralax or Ion, is better than Lobo's.

    Also, I am still doubting that Lobo even possessed the Eye for an extended period of time. It seems as though Starfire used it after Lobo was shown to have it, so the question in my mind is how long did Lobo have it....and would 24 hours of trump time give him access to it again. It does not seem like it is an item that is permanently in his possession and would be his to use when ever the need arises.

    Also, his bike? Really? Against any green lantern that bike would not be helpful at all, much less against a top tier lantern like Kyle.
  14. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    Pretty much what I was going to say there. You're insisting that we have to look at Lobo's best and Kyle's worst? Again, dude, be serious. You say that this is blatant Lobo disrespect, but only one person here is showing any disrespect to a character.

    Lobo is really damned good, but Kyle, at his best, is better. He has better feats, has beaten more impressive opponents, etc, etc, etc...

    Does Kyle have some humiliating losses? Absolutely. Do his successes outweigh them? By a massive margin, I'd say yes. Does Lobo have some really good feats? Most definitely. Do Kyle's best feats kind of put them to shame? Well... maybe not shame (Except for his two or three most insane displays. Those kinda do.), but they're certainly more impressive, all things considered. No one is judging him as Ion here. But he was still extremely impressive well before that whole business.

    You say Lobo is Superman-level, but Kyle's beaten Superman-level characters multiple times. And by the way, while Supes vs. Lobo is often a very good fight, I've seen Superman utterly dismantle Lobo when he needs to really take the fight seriously. This I've also seen multiple times.

    Anyways, yeah, with all the things that Panther gets with the prep (all the relevant info he would to become very familiar with Grundy, even though he's never actually met him, but more importantly, a DNA sample), I can see him being able to devise a way to take Grundy down or neutralize him in some way. Basically, if he can do what he did to Mephisto, I think he can cook something up for Grundy. Not necessarily the same thing, obviously, but... yeah. And again, prepping for Moonstone will take him all of maybe ten minutes.

    Black Panther

    EDIT:

    Lets say we have a person like invicible speed, but no strength v Abomination. Could never beat him, but could run away the whole fight, or run in circles. That's basically the same thing.

    Ummmmm... no, it isn't.
  15. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    Sorry school has been wreaking my life recently. But I see everyone is posting judgments now? I can play with those rules.


    Kyle Rayner vs. Lobo (prep)
    I think we already did this. Lobo won.


    Karate Kid vs. Goblin Queen
    Karate Kid doesn't win.


    Firestorm vs. Juggernaut
    This one is a toughy. I agree with the immobilizing as a win is cheap. I like to think how plot lines in movies and comics work, and the most logical and easiest thing is usually never done EVER. So for continuity of plot devices I see no reason not to.


    Black Panther (prepped) vs. Moonstone/Solomon Grundy
    At this point I am about 1% in favor for the trump. Grundy is one hearty mofo. I have a feeling it will be overturned though. I may do it myself if I can better appreciate the BP prepgod manlove?


    Allen the Alien vs. Apocalypse (prepped)
    Too much.


    Wonder Woman vs. Atrocitus
    I have to say I am much more familiar with WW here, and yeah she is powerful. I hate voting based on just being more familiar with an old battle-axe here than a new comer but I gotta.


    Duplikate/Immortal vs. Solomon Forfeit Grundy
    Right.

    Majestic (prepped) vs. Shadow King
    Bumrush.
  16. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    Well, looks like everything's been voted on. I do heartily disagree with the Kyle call, and Firestorm vs. Juggernaut irks me just thinking about it, not so much because of any judgment but because that is a cheap way to "win" but also when you can do that it's hard for me to say you lose, either. But that Kyle... Who the heck has he beaten, or what has he done, that I'm missing? I see nothing impressive from him. Beating Sinestro or Grayven is the best I've seen.

    And yeah I think Lobo's being highly disrespected, especially with some of the ridiculous wins he's gotten in the past. But I don't see anything being overturned anytime soon, I'm pretty sure. But I would like to see these so-called great showings from Kyle.

    And yeah, Eye of Ekron is being overlooked here. I mean, he was stated to have it at or before when he was picked. It is the precursor to a GL ring right? And Lobo is prepped right? Just sayin... Although I wouldn't vote for Kyle vs. Lobo straight-up, anyway.

    Firestorm vs. Juggernaut is just another reason why Juggernaut just needs to go. Firestorm probably too, this is a stupid way to win. I wish I'd said this earlier, about Juggernaut.
  17. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    I see nothing impressive from him.

    Not okay
  18. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    No Durron and D1, I'm not trying to say look at Kyle lows and look at Lobo's highs. That's stupid. I'm saying look at peak Kyle still losing to strong people. And look at peak Lobo crushing people. Peak Lobo hasn't really lost to anyone who is draft eligible, and then, on top of it all, he's prepped. Trust me, I have more GL man love than most, and Kyle one of the best, but he's not winning this. And as Chim said, I think Kyle has lost this match up in that past, or maybe Lobo beat another GL. EF, John Stewart is the only lantern whose will exceeded the limit of the ring. If the rings are based on will, and John's exceed his limit, I think that says a lot. Also, John Stewart has NEVER shown emotions IIRC. Kyle has shown fear, Hal has shown rage, but John is a stoic beast. Hal is only better than John Stewart because of his tract record and feats, but when has John Stewart lost. John Stewart is the most impressive and underrated GL period. But back to Lobo, Lobo has prep, speed, attacks from multiple angles with the eye, the eye would at least sneak a good surprise shot in.

    Then the Juggernaut fight is worse than a cheesy win in SFII Turbo. At least in that a person is blocking and they lose from gradually damage over time. Juggernaut CAN'T be hurt by this guy. If they go toe to toe, Juggernaut wins. I personally think if ring outs are illegal, stalling should be too. This is just a fancy form of stalling. I honestly feel like my team is getting robbed here...
  19. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    If you guys have a problem with something someone says, bring it to Bassil and me.

    Where is the argument by the ABCs? The proof of Kyle? Where is the fairness of the Firestorm-Han Solo reenactment? Egregious.

    Also, if the eye of ekron can wipe out a God with one shot, I'm sure it would take some time for Kyle to deal with it. Especially if it gets a sneak blast from the rear. While Kyle is dealing with the eye, Lobo can go to town on him as well. I really don't see how Lobo loses, and no one has answered this. And the eye is in, and Lobo can blast with it, so I don't see how any of this is a stretch.
  20. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    Seriously, if you guys have problems with each other, take it to PM or take it to Bassil and me. This is not the appropriate place.
  21. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    Okay!

    Congratulations to the runner-up in this year's Comic Book Superhero Draft, Kalar and Team Ragnarok!

    Now, I would like to officially congratulate TLI and The ABCs for this, the championship victory!

    Welcome to that elite club of Comic Book Superhero Draft Champions!

    Go ahead, put it on your wall!

    [image=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/119/297626878_f7785aca63.jpg]

    And talk to... Uh... BaSSiL or Nat, I guess, about colors.

    Congratulations again!
  22. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 6
    Time to let this drop.

    K? Thanks.

    Anyway, Eye of Ekron...not that it matters any longer for this draft, more for future reference...now correct me if I am wrong but that is a sentient item that tries to seduce those who use it? Why yes D1,yes it is. Not sure why I never noticed until now, but um....yeah....we don't allow prep characters to bring in sentient items....never have (except I suppose the mother box issue, but that is a bit different because Orion is never shown to be without it so we can't really judge him as not having it)....so why were we even considering it usable by Lobo?

    No emotion? I suppose you would be right, if you are set on completely ignoring the career long bout of guilt he has suffered over destroying the planet of Xanshi, then sure....he is an unfeeling stoic beast.

    If being the key word there. Why on earth would Firestorm go toe to toe with Juggernaut? Firestorm really isn't a toe to toe kind of guy.

    Permanent imprisonment isn't a ring out, nor is it a stall. By the time we were done with 1 or 2 drafts we knew that there had to be more ways to win a fight than by kill or ko's....and in this draft completely stopping a person from taking any action at all has been considered a valid way of winning...I see it as being no different than a KO.

    Firestorm doesn't need to remove Juggs from the battlefield, nor is he stalling....he is completely stopping Juggernaut....preventing him from moving at all or being able to do anything offensive. If Firestorm was to do that in a comic (which he is 100% capable of doing), it would be a permanent solution to the fight...and Juggernaut would have no means of escaping unless he got outside help.

    Anyway, congrats to both teams for making it to the finals. Excellent match. =D=
  23. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    Firestorm cannot be harmed. He can go intangible, and his power source is no more limited than Juggernaut's.


    And I'm not sure why having the Eye of Ekron is supposed to be of special importance against someone who has the better weapon. I see nothing that suggests Lobo can manipulate the eye in any way, except for "blasting" (and even someone who could, the Emerald Empress, was never close to as impressive as a GL). These blasts are not powerful enough to break through high end GL shields. I don't understand how a prototype is going to put Lobo over the edge against someone who has the much more refined, much more versatile, and, frankly, much more powerful weapon.
  24. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2002
    star 9
    Congrats, Loyal!! Colors are yours :)

    Thanks to everyone who played, to the judges, and to Yak for stepping up and hosting. Good stuff, guys.
  25. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    You guys got edited by mods...LOL

    Grats TLI and to everyone! I think you are all winners in the end, and no not because you just participated but because we finally made it to the end. Nice work everyone.
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