Games The Comic Book Character Draft ReduX [Ed: That's #10 for those keeping score]

Discussion in 'Community' started by EmpireForever, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

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    Right, but during crisis several versions of heroes died, and the multiverse was merged into one positive and one negative. All I'm saying is that the story arc you sited takes place outside of crisis, since EVERY character in it are also in crisis, and it's not post crisis, since crisis wasn't over at the start.
  2. The Great No One Force Ghost

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    Jun 4, 2005
    star 8
    it really is kind of a bizarre outlier really. i have no clue what they were thinking when they did that since it doesn't line up with... anything really. unless it's supposed to be an elseworld type thing, but that doesn't seem particularly accurate either since so many of the changes made to despero did carry past crisis. glad i'm not having to figure that out. :p
  3. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

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    star 6
    Did you read the thing I linked Kalar?

    Crisis doesn't have to be over, anything that happens in the Crisis event such as deaths, introductions, revisions (Despero being revised by being reborn in the flame), etc.....are all post-crisis.

    The merging of the multiverse is post-crisis. The crisis event itself is referenced in multiple post crisis comics, thus making the event itself "post-crisis" because it is canon in the new unified DC universe.

    Anything that happened prior to the start of Crisis is considered pre-crisis. Stop trying to justify your theory and just go do the research yourself.

    EDIT: Trim, I am just glad that they seemed to have learned something and did it better with The New 52.
    Last edited by Mikaboshi, Apr 18, 2013
  4. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

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  5. The Great No One Force Ghost

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    you do have to admit that there is a pretty distinct time period that is "the crisis" though, since it's got it's own series and all that jazz. i mean, depending on how your'e looking at it there is a very clear pre, crisis, and post (i.e. everything that happens after the defeat of anti-monitor and psycho-pirate being in arkham doing the monologue). not even a particularly difficult distinction to make either. and since there was so much stuff changing there, it would be simpler for the purposes of this to have it be post crisis. just my personal opinion on that, for what it's worth.

    and yea, i'm glad they seem to have learned from the repeated crisis events that they've had. i have to say it was rather interesting that they used thawne for that, and actually figured out what the speed force is. assuming that the reboot was a result of flashpoint like i'd heard anyway.

    EDIT

    that doesn't really... clear the three time periods thing up though. if anything it suggests that they are using a "crisis" time period, since they specifically high-lighted that particular time period.

    nor does that even remotely explain how that can be going on in parallel with the crisis events for that matter.

    EDIT 2

    this would suggest that they DO, in fact, have a period that is defined as "the crisis", i.e. the events that happened during it.

    As a result, the series and its events eventually became known simply as "The Crisis", an informal title that would persist among fans, readers, and even the DC editorial staff, for almost 20 years.
    Last edited by Trimaj, Apr 18, 2013
  6. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

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    I'm not trying to justify my theory and I did do research. I agree with what you said except that DC does recognize pre-crisis, crisis, and post crisis as separate events. Also, the story arc has people doing things and in two places at the same time. The comics you referenced were printed the same month as other comics with the same characters which screams pre crisis. This doesn't happen post crisis (normally) and you offer NO justification for this. All I'm saying is this event isn't post-crisis cannon. You can go on and on, and "not argue" about this and repeat yourself, but this isn't sustained/nor post-crisis. You can say crisis is post-crisis, but that doesn't really jive with the fact that the multiverse merging. Yes it's referenced, yes it's cannon, but there is a difference because crisis is the process of cleaning up the DC universe and post-crisis is making it one continuum:
    The universes had grown out of control, and so Wolfman and Perez organized a grand scale team-up. Heroes from all time periods and all walks of life united under the powerful guidance of the Monitor. Many heroes sacrificed their lives in the ensuing battles. Finally, the Anti - Monitor was defeated - but at a great cost. In place of an infinite number of realities, only one remained: a new earth with an untold story and unlimited potential.

    That's from comicvine. That said, how can the heroes be fighting Despero if they are also in crisis. They can't, that isn't cannon, it isn't post-crisis.

    Thanks Trimaj. Mika, please read what I'm saying instead of just spouting off the same thing over. I agree with your pre-crisis definition, I don't agree with making crisis a part of post-crisis. ALSO, the despero arc can't be post-crisis because of the above.
    Last edited by Hokage_Kalar, Apr 18, 2013
  7. dp4m Chosen One

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    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Cannon = [IMG]

    Canon = [IMG]
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  8. heels1785 Jedi Draft Commissioner

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  9. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

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    star 4
    Further more Mika:
    Continuing continuity issues

    The changes made in the wake of Crisis were not implemented consistently. The series was published over the course of a year, with ongoing series continuing simultaneously. In addition, several stories set in the previous continuity were published following the series' final issue. Initially, characters who were present at the final battle at the dawn of time remembered their original histories until their post-Crisis histories were fully established, a process that sometimes required years to completely play out. Furthermore, revamped or relaunched versions of titles debuted at different times, with DC continuing to feature old versions of characters until new versions were launched, sometimes a year or more later. As a consequence, a series intended to streamline DC continuity introduced additional complexities.[citation needed]

    In addition, the issue before the Despero arc is considered a part of crisis, not that Despero issues according to DC. Wonder why, because they hadn't had time to mix in the crisis events and this is some more pre-crisis storyline that hadn't been intergrated.

    Tie-in issues: Post-Crisis

    Despero story starts in JLA #247, and those same members were still in Crisis. DC did a poor job of making their universe chronological, we all get that. But that issue isn't post crisis.



    CAN I GET AN AMEN!
    Last edited by Hokage_Kalar, Apr 18, 2013
  10. whiteeagle Force Ghost

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  11. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

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    Further Mika, or dispised1, can we just call you D1? check this out:
    Secret Origins (vol. 2) #32 (November 1988) updated Justice League of America #9's origin for post-Crisis continuity. Differences included the inclusion of the original Black Canary as a founding member and the absence of Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman. The JLA: Year Onelimited series, by Mark Waid, Brian Augustyn, and Barry Kitson, further expanding the Secret Originsdepiction.[77]
    So, JLA issues aren't cosidered post crisis until 1988... excluding 1 issue, which isn't the Despero arc.

    This isn't even my battle, but when you question if I've read what you linked or done my own research I take that personally. I actually followed comics closely, and I use to be a huge DC fanboy. Despero was my older brother's FAVORITE villian. I didn't want to go on a tirade about this, but yea... since you asked me to...

    For post crisis Despero look at these issues:
    Justice League America #37 (April 1990): "Furballs!"
    Justice League America #38 (May 1990): "Spy"
    Justice League America #39 (June 1990): "Blow Up"
    Justice League America #40 (July 1990): "Hell On Earth"
    Justice League America #42 (September 1990): "Solicitations"
    Justice League Europe #30 (September 1991): [Breakdowns Part 4] "The Widening Gyre"
    Supergirl Vol. 4 #17 (January 1998): "Teetering On Oblivion"
    Supergirl Vol. 4 #18 (February 1998): "Divine Inspiration"
    Young Justice #6 (March 1999): "Judgment Day"
    JLA/JSA: Virtue & Vice (2003): [Virtue & Vice] [Flashback]
    JLA/JSA: Virtue & Vice (2003): [Virtue & Vice]
    JLA #115 (August 2005): "Crisis of Conscience, Part One"
    JLA #116 (September 2005): "Crisis of Conscience, Part Two"
    JLA #117 (October 2005): "Crisis of Conscience, Part Three"
    JLA #118 (early November 2005): "Crisis of Conscience, Part Four"
    JLA #119 (late November 2005): "Crisis of Conscience, Conclusion"
    Green Lantern Vol. 4 #7 (February 2006): "A Perfect Life, Chapter 1"
    Last edited by Hokage_Kalar, Apr 18, 2013
  12. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

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    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    Weird, I couldn't add another new line, sorry for the double post...

    Above is the complete list of comics in which Despero appears in since PC. Not saying what he did their isn't impressive, but it isn't taking on Flash, Superman, WW, etc impressive.
  13. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 6
    You can call me by the name under my avatar, that would be just peachy. Or you can call me by what ever other name you wish I guess, not sure what that has to do with our discussion about the pre-crisis/post-crisis cutoff as seems fairly irrelevant to the discussion but if it makes you feel good do what ever you want.

    Why do I need to justify something that DC does? It is their company not mine. It is clearly a mess, but it is also clear that most of what happens in the event is post-crisis canon.

    I am not defining what is post or pre-crisis, I am just quoting stuff from pages and all of them say that pre-crisis is defined as anything that happened before the Crisis of Infinite Earths.

    Was the Flame of Py'tar ever mentioned in pre-crisis DC? Not that I am aware of, as far as I can tell this was the first appearance of the Flame. Whether it was nor not, Despero's rebirth after emerging himself in the Flame definately happened here and most of the powers it bestowed were retained by Despero, and Despero has referenced the Flame and his rebirth in it since. So clearly that is post-crisis canon right? So this story, and his origins as the reborn Despero since it was part of this story, is post crisis?

    Seems like it.

    You don't have to agree with it, but it also isn't your decision. DC makes the call there, and it seems that they are defining it as post crisis.

    Not really sure what you are all whipped up about, EF made the call that he isn't comfortable with the reality manipulating stuff a while ago and I said I was cool with it. Not arguing for that stuff at all. Are you seriously that invested in being right about the cut-off of pre-crisis/post-crisis that you are getting this huffy about it?

    Nothing that happened prior to the 1st issue of Crisis is continued in post-crisis DC, but many things that happen in the Crisis event continue through post-crisis DC.

    Call it what you want Kalar, it just isn't that important.
  14. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    I'm actually showing you that whole story arc isn't considered post crisis by DC because they clearly stated they wanted to finish off some stories, and slowly introduce post crisis cannon. JLA issues don't become official post crisis until 1988...

    You insinuated I didn't do research and didn't read up on this and was spouting off the cuff on things I knew nothing about. I wanted to make sure the boards respected my opinion by validating them with a mountain of evidence. I also like hopping up on my soap box and yelling... CAN I GET AN AMEN!
    Last edited by Hokage_Kalar, Apr 18, 2013
  15. EmpireForever Chosen One

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    "You don't have to agree with it, but it also isn't your decision. DC makes the call there, and it seems that they are defining it as post crisis."

    Actually, given the information about the Justice League America issues and the delay in that title's reboot, I'd double check the source of there being a solid date for events that are pre-crisis/post-crisis as it seems there were definite lags in reboots for most of DC's titles outside of the actual event issues.

    And the possibility of this arc being both a continuation/evolution of Despero's pre-crisis appearance and the basis for his post-crisis origin is not out of the question. I believe it's on his comicvine bio that he started out puny, bathed or whatever in the flame, and that's how he gained his new physically dominant abilities.It'll take me some time to confirm that as being in the pre-crisis section though.
    Last edited by EmpireForever, Apr 18, 2013
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  16. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

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    May 13, 2009
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    I actually said that too... but I'm glad EF agrees with me.

    I also listed every official PC appearance of Despero. I'm doing the leg work for you Mika!
    Last edited by Hokage_Kalar, Apr 18, 2013
  17. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 6
    I sure hope you are having fun with it, you seem to be excited about it.

    I am just going by the stuff I quoted, don't argue with me about it....I didn't write it.

    "Pre-Crisis is a term used to describe characters, items, realities or events that took place during DC Comics' publishing history prior to the 1985-86 Crisis on Infinite Earths limited series."

    That is their definition, not mine.

    Not sure why it even matters at this point, it was already decided a while ago that there will be no matter/reality manipulation from Despero....and I am fine with that and haven't argued for it since.

    EDIT: Most everything I posted was from Virtue & Vice, that is where he stomped Superman/Captain Marvel/Wonder Woman and Power Girl. So thanks for showing me stuff I already posted Kalar, that was really helpful I guess. [face_dunno]
    Last edited by Mikaboshi, Apr 18, 2013
  18. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

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    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    Do you trust everything on the internet?
    Ahhh Bonjour?
    Did you actually read the whole article, because they talk about the lag as well, and even Crisis being considered it's own period? Did you even read all the articles I linked?

    Last edited by Hokage_Kalar, Apr 18, 2013
  19. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

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    star 6
  20. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

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    I'm glad we agree on Pre-Crisis, but the point we're making is on crisis, and post crisis. And I am excited to prove I'm right and to add clarity/transparency to the draft and show all of Despero's Post Crisis appearance and clearly dismiss his matter manipulation powers with facts instead of opinions and also write really long sentences and also to get you to devolve into random non-sequiturs...
    Last edited by Hokage_Kalar, Apr 18, 2013
  21. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 6
    Maybe you missed the multiple times that I pointed out that the matter manipulation powers were off the table for a few hours already, did you miss that? You must have, because EF made that call before you began arguing about it.

    Just in case you want to read it again,


    That happened about 3 hours ago. So you are arguing about what exactly?
    Last edited by Mikaboshi, Apr 18, 2013
  22. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    That EVERYTHING in JLA from 1986 do not count. Not just his MM powers, but none of those feats. Stick with V&V

    Also... I'm proving the lag in time for Post Crisis to go main stream. And that your time periods aren't exactly right but an approximation or simplification. Also when we can consider things cannon for at least this draft...

    Don't hate me because I'm pretty :cool:

    Also it's only been an hour and 30 mins approximately...
    Last edited by Hokage_Kalar, Apr 18, 2013
  23. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 6
    And who cares? I am not asking for anything from that arc to count, the minute EF made his post I didn't care one bit about that arc. He is still insanely strong, still durable as hell, still a telepath who has few equals in DC.

    Take a breath and calm down. You are trying to convince everyone to discount something that nobody cares about.

    I thought we were just talking about the pre-crisis/post-crisis cut off and didn't realize you were all serious and upset about it. Jeez dude, chill out.

    EDIT: Psst.....it's canon, not cannon. ;)
    Last edited by Mikaboshi, Apr 18, 2013
  24. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    I'm chill, this is humorous to me. I like being right but not as much as other don't like to be... anyway... I'm also clarifying that the preC/postC line isn't as clear cut as you make it, and that DC admits there is a lag, and if you research hard enough you can find it.

    I still think Ganthet is beastly. I think Despero is similar to SBP, and SBP was fairly close Sodam Yat until the lead. I think Ganthet is better that Sodam Yat, so yes this is a huge chain of logic, but Ganthet seems to be able to go toe to toe with Despero, and with Marvel (despite his low usefulness) I think they would have a slight edge.
    Last edited by Hokage_Kalar, Apr 18, 2013
  25. heels1785 Jedi Draft Commissioner

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    Judgment time.

    Fate over Allen. I'm high on Fate as is, and can't find any evidence to dispute my original inclination.

    Awesome debate over this second one, but I still go Despero. Way too much physical prowess there, even though Ganthet is fearsome- anyone who can toe the line and take down first-round talent like Cyborg Superman is beyond respectable, and even though I'm not as high on Marvel as some, I think that this fight is razor tight if Marvel isn't wiped out early- although I think he might be. At the end of the day, I side with wang- I just can't come up with any circumstance in which I think Despero will be tested physicially. Sure, you take his silver bullet out of the chamber, but this thing has stood with essentially the entire Justice League and swatted them away. Just too much here. Minch, you should hold your head high for your efforts.

    If maxle wants to jump in and give his judgment, I'll throw the next round up either tonight or early tomorrow, or if EF wants to push forward. Night, brethren.
    Last edited by heels1785, Apr 18, 2013