Discussion in 'Community' started by EmpireForever, Mar 3, 2013.
the fact that i didn't reply to it should have suggested i wasn't going to argue about it either.
Oh lord here we go again.
Anyway yeah.... I did that record keeping for just about every draft I have ever been in, all teams all characters and GMs. Sure makes it nice to compare later and logic and it actually got to the point I was going to put judges reasonings but I ran out of motivation.
Adding judges reasoning to it would be a huge project, but very useful in later drafts.
BB downright terrifies Apoc., and gets wiped off the battlefield with a whisper.
BB has had some bad draws, this actually seems like another one. He just isn't catching a break.
I am not sure how that trump can neutralize BB, but I am sure the judges will consider that he does.
Let me know if you want arguments for this, if not I won't waste my time.
firstly, since it's such a hotly-debated issue, sure kyle has all of his rainbow powers.
but he still looses to x-man
annihilius handily beats the forfeit without the quantum bands
dr. fate beats hal jordan because magic > scienceand i'd say black bolt beats this sinister trump of b-list villains. i realize that they're prepped and trumped and things, but i think this particular pairing would be more effective against things that are less of a threat than blackbolt. like, say, cyclops or superman or someone with a more easily exploitable weakness.
Actually I do have a little time, and BB needs something posted on him.
Black Bolt can stop attacks fired at him with ease.
This is cool, BB isn't even using his voice. Just seems to be casually destroying stuff and resists TP.
BB speaking can rip a hole in reality according to Reed Richards and Tony Stark
The Sentry isn't keen on fighting BB, is afraid of his voice.
Has some kind of ability to manipulate energy, he has done this more than a few times actually. He can actually manipulate matter as well, but the link is broken.
BB fights this guy, the Sphinx, seems lame until you know that the Spinx stood toe to toe with Galactus for a while before eventually being beat.
A skrull imposter fought and lost to WWH, this is what the real BB does to the same opponent.
On top of all this he can create force fields that can contain a savage Hulk for hours, move so fast that he can speed blitz, his screams atomize people and rip through defensive forcefields, and is strong and durable enough to stand toe to toe against the likes of Hulk/Thor/Gladiator etc.
Not really sure how that means this fight ends, I am not sure how I would vote even, but I know that BB doesn't roll over and that if the trump wins they have one hell of a fight before them. They need to be working together well, which they probably wouldn't, and find a way to stop this guy.
Apocalypse sure doesn't seem scared of BB here along with the X-Men
The prep is really what does it here in this match; Fat Lips has fought BB before so given prep time along w/ one of his horsemen they'd be able to do BB in.
Whether that means Fat Lips uses celestial tech, force fields or even alter his own density to absorb everything BB throws at him I don't know.
Bad draw for BB
Black Bolt neutralizes a solar flare that threatens to destroy earth.
Turns the hard ground soft enough to entrap the Mandarin, also neutralizes his rings. That is something there, the rings are highly advanced technology. Apoc uses highly advanced technology.
This is interesting, this is a lot of energy output from BB. More than I have seen Apoc handle.
He has also closed black holes with his voice.
These are things that all seem fairly far above Apocalypse's best showings, regardless if he is prepared or not.
Kalar, you know that I know that you're a really smart guy, always have been. But for the sake of debate, I'm going to hold your feet to the fire here:
If you really believe that you've got a character capable of beating X-Man, you don't make this move. even if you took it back by dumping Maestro- you wouldn't even consider it.
Regardless of how great the pickup Cable was. If I am wrong, then tell me so- I'm just going at this on logic.
I'm most torn on Fate vs. Hal, but should have judgments up tonight.
Also, thanks for that list,
@Mikaboshi. That is awesome.
No problem, as long as I have time I will try and keep it updated each round.
I've conceded matches I had no chance in. This isn't one of them. But it depends on of Kyle can use the color spectrum or not. After harnessing the spectrum he whoops up ganthet. He single handed holds off the third army which is on the verge of taking out the whole core. Kyle seriously transcends lantern powers. I didn't know this before I picked up cable and honestly didn't research Kyle that well. The whole guardians series is focused on him and the first lantern.
Further more, that's the worst precedence ever, because you almost dropped him from your team he can't beat X-Man.
If his spectrum powers are allowed, I don't doubt he can win. If not, then he loses, moving on. Does he have the powers with modifications/rings/gadgets/accessories... yes
Nobody said it was setting a precedent. It was just a logical conclusion based on your actions, and I wanted some insight on it. Since I am supposed to judge.
Precedence is a strong word... argument... stance? All I'm saying is the spectrum neutralizes X-man's Telepathy powers. It becomes TK v emotional energy. And with Kyle tapping into 7, I'd say he has a stronger supply. Especially with the green/blue synergy.
Not only that, but the 7 spectrums make him more durably, and versatile.
Stance, perhaps. I try to avoid injecting myself into arguments to maintain balance.
Perhaps you just valued Cable that much- I dunno, I give you a lot of credit for that pickup. And it certainly does not discredit Kyle's ability that you gave him a short stay on free agency- there are free agents who could wipe out some existing team members for multiple squads. I got what I came for, I believe, just a bit of clarity- you believe that Kyle is uniquely equipped for this matchup, and I am not one to rain on your parade, or dissuade your arguments.
On we go!
Update: Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister are considering joining Doomsday in a class-action suit.
I didn't even see this... so if Kyle gets his rainbow powers as you call them, there really is no way he loses to X-Man... are we saying his rainbow powers cap? Because if not, by the end of the issue before the draft he had already started to "shimmer". More exertion he taps into the white light. Even with that aside, 7 colors and an experience... and you still just give it to X-man. Not sure how I feel about this.
Can't I at least try to argue?
No seriously though. I think Hal has a better shot then you're giving him. Not sure I buy magic > science in this instance given Fate isn't prepared for Hal and his ring. Much like Fate, if Hal can think it, he can do it. He has shields just like Fate. He has experience. And in the case of Hal, he's taken on many opponents at one time, he's done the super duper powerups like Parallax and Spectre. Here's just some of his feats: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/hal-jordan-respect-thread-619118/
And one more:
His speed, his power. His experience. He can take out Fate. He's got the power to do it.
So I can't just get behind magic > science. Afterall, Reed defeats Doom plenty of times with SCIENCE! Additionally, the argument can be made that the ring is still a bit magical in nature over pure science. Either way, it's one of the most, if not the most, powerful weapons in the DC Universe and Hal is the best GL evar according to DC.
I'm leaning Hal, Apoc/Sinister (prep), X-Man, and Annihilus. Because the debate is going on, I'll hold off, since we're barely under 24 hours- these aren't official, just my inclinations.
Mikaboshi, you've again done good work- after reading all of those scans, I just think he's just in over his head here. Apoc prepped is wicked tough, and that trump is cohesively evil.
For me, Kyle Rayner is a green lantern. And I don't see a green lantern, even Ion, taking out Nate Grey.
Hal has plenty of experience against magic, I don't know, I'm rather torn on this one- just because I really like Dr. Fate's feats, and I think he gets undersold the majority of the time. That's the one I'm still chewing on.
Cool, no spectrum, not arguing. But for team battles, the spectrum is important if one every happens.
if he's not getting them here, then why would he get them in teams?
And if he were prepared, I wouldn't be fighting this one. The difference here is that much like Strange, Fate benefits more from prep time where as Hal doesn't need prep to react instinctively. His ring is much harder for Fate to counter without prep time. That's really what it comes down to. A prepared Fate would know: Go for the ring asap.
Peak level Fate is powerful. But peak Hal is even better. The feats he's performed are equally as good, if not better, than Fate's. When you look at power levels, it's hard not to be impressed by someone who can hold planets together and refuel suns. He's also not exactly an easy target to catch as those scans show his speed and teleportation. Hal's definitely someone who has proven that if the person's will is strong enough, anything is possible with a GL ring. Ganthet might have the iron will, Kyle may be creative, but Hal is the one who just makes it happen. His most recent feat was killing Krona which the Guardians claim should never have been possible. Again, Fate's very good. But against Hal, I believe he's outclassed.
Fate and Hal are both "writer's choice" characters. I don't see how it honestly matters who gets the vote. I can say Fate has more low showings that I can recall than Hal, due I'm sure to Hal having greater popularity and there being no lesser "Fates" like there are lesser GLs. So I guess given that I'd give Hal the vote but you really can't go wrong either way to me.
I am trying to understand this Kyle Rayner thing a bit better so I went out and read up on the bio, this is what I found.
"When Rayner arrives he sees Ganthet without his emotions, the Guardians start demand to know about the rings following him, but Kyle doesn't know which make , The guardians move to restrain him for interrogation but all are shocked when every ring chooses Kyle as their respective user. They slip onto his fingers and to the shock of the guardians becomes the lantern for the entire emotional spectrum. Though initially overpowering the guardians he is soon overwhelmed after the change Kyle start attacking the Guardians before they could seized him, but the power start to fade and all the rings except the green and orange was destroyed. "
I don't know who wrote the bio, but the writing stinks and I am not sure how accurate it is.
Another bio basically says the same thing, just a bit clearer.
"At that point, each Power Ring went onto his fingers and overwhelmed him with power as Kyle became a hybrid Lantern that was somehow added to all the Corps at once. The power overwhelmed Kyle, as all the power rings but his own Green ring and the Orange ring shattered after a brief instant overload. "
Does Kyle keep these powers after the power fades and the rings were destroyed? Are there many feats to show what he can do, and that he is in fact really powered up by the synergy of the blue and green rings?
I am not trying to argue, look at it more as an opportunity to make your case clearer. I am confused about it so figured it can't hurt to ask.
From that point Kyle goes to train with the respective corps using their power. He "masters" each one and is able to use them later, supposedly with just his green ring, eventually this leads--or is leading to--Kyle becoming a White Lantern by default.