The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread

Illegal immigration is a problem in the US. It is a bigger problem than most believe. Here are some pictures I took this morning:

[image=http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e249/jrodspictures/P1010293.jpg]

All of these pictures were taken along Gilbert Road between Main Street and Broadway. It is a stretch of road that is about a half mile. All of these illegals...hundreds of them...line this stretch of road everyday looking for "day labor." This is just one of hundreds of other stretches of road in the Phoenix area that have hundreds of illegals looking for work.

Notice that this is not an industrial area nor is it a run down part of town. This is a middle class neighborhood. We are overrun with illegals. It is a national security issue tied, IMO, with terrorism...the number one national issue; again IMO.

So, what do we do about this? President Bush is demanding a "comprehensive" bill. I think the issue is too big and complicated to be handled in a single bill. I'll explain:

Let's say that you walk into your bathroom and see that the sink is overflowing and water is flooding onto the floor. The first thing you would want to do is to turn off the water. we agree on that. Yet you can't because you haven't decided whether to unclog the drain before you mop up the floor or vice-versa. So the water keeps running.

Then you have to decide if you want to mop up the water or use a squeegee...and the water is still running.

Then you realize that the water isn't really bad water and since the shower needs cleaned you may want to use some of the water for that purpose. Meanwhile...nobody's turned off the water yet!

So here is my take:
1) Stop the flow of illegals. How?
A) Build a wall.
B) Make legal crossing easier
C) Recind a hike in minimum wage until the boarder is secure. A hike will only make it more desirable for illegals to come here and make employers more willing to have "off the books" workers.
D) No longer give citizenship entitlement to children born of people who are here illeglly.
E) Allow no wefare or Social Security programs availible to those who choose to enter illegally.

After the boarder is secure we can move on to the next step: What do we do with those already here?

2) Mass deportation. C'mon. It ain't that expensive and we have the resources for it. Companies that are willing to "sponsor" any that are already here may do so. But said individuals will never be allowed to be citizens nor collect from public money. A fair trade for cutting in line ahead of those who came here legally.

Is it that hard?

J_Rod I removed most of the pictures because of a complaint that it makes the page load too slowly for our users with dial-up. You can certainly display your photos in the thread here, but can you link to them instead of directly displaying them?

 

J-Rod,
You might want to notify the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office. They recently passed that law in AZ that allows the DA to prosecute illegals for human smuggling (smuggling of themselves).

There are million dollar homes that I drive by everyday in California that have illegals standing outside on the street waiting for work. Course there are farm fields across the street.

 

J-Rod, I'd been wanting to start a thread on just this, myself.

My view on immigration in general, and illegal immigration specifically...
Immigration does hold great benefits for the U.S., but I think that we are at a point where there needs to be some controls. First of all, there is an issue of security. Second, with a welfare state, there needs to be some regulation.

In general, I think the whole system is in need of reform. With the importance of immigration, and the numbers wanting to come here, I think its important to make it easier for those going through the system that want to be here and respect law, rather than turning a blind eye to those that clearly DON'T care about American law.
I think the gov't move to make the costs to become a citizen higher is an absolutely ridiculous step away from encouraging people that want to come here to work within the system. We need stronger prosecution of those that are hiring illegal immigrants (let it dry up the market... they can't work, they won't come or stay), and I would also like to see reform to get rid of illegal immigrants exploiting 'anchor babies', as I feel that if you have a kid here when you're going to get deported, you're putting that child in a harmful situation. That said, I would also like to see a lot of the red tape that goes into coming here legally removed, the process as a whole streamlined, and quotas increased across the board.

 

Alright, I'll bite.
Why don't you list prosecution of employers as an way to end the problem? If the government enforces its laws in that regard the supply of jobs dry up, problem... solved? Frankly, from my view, this should be the easiest and most powerful way to resolve this issue.

I don't think this is the most important issue in the doc, but I can see the value of addressing this.

 

Alright, I'll bite.
Why don't you list prosecution of employers as an way to end the problem? If the government enforces its laws in that regard the supply of jobs dry up, problem... solved? Frankly, from my view, this should be the easiest and most powerful way to resolve this issue.

Two reasons:

1) We already have laws on the books for this. They need only be enforced. It is, after all, a huge federal offence to hire someone without a Social Security number.

2) So many of the illegals have false Social Security numbers and I don't believe an employer should bear the cost of validating numbers that the government is responsible for enforcing. This is also why I don't think that renters or realtors can be held liable for doing business with illegals.

I don't think this is the most important issue in the doc, but I can see the value of addressing this.

This opinion is the major problem with this issue. Did you see all the pictures before they were removed due to time constraints? It is one of the biggest problems we face as a nation.

 

So if you're simply suggesting what needs to be fixed, shouldn't the enforcement of those laws specifically be mentioned? I mean, I think the statistic is that there's been less enforcement of hiring people without SS #s under Bush than Clinton (I'd need to double check that though)
Second, plenty of employers are fully aware they are hiring illegals. There is a very big difference between accidentally hiring an illegal and hiring large numbers of illegally knowingly. Many companies don't bother to check, for example.

 

I mean, I think the statistic is that there's been less enforcement of hiring people without SS #s under Bush than Clinton (I'd need to double check that though)

Depends on how you look at the statistics. There are now waaaaaaayyyyy more illegals here than in Clinton's years. But are a higher percentage of them working with false SS#?

Second, plenty of employers are fully aware they are hiring illegals.

Certainly. But how do you prove an employer knew the SS# was false and how do you prove another honestly thought it was valid?

And I guess I was assuming that stricter enforcement of existing laws was simply taken for granted. After all, do we need to make a law that says laws must be enforced?

 

I was talking strict numbers J-Rod, not percentages. Which actually underscores the problem.

On the second count... when just suggesting what needs to get done, actual enforcement is a key thing to point out. Immigration control away from the borders hasn't been practiced much.

 

I was talking strict numbers J-Rod, not percentages. Which actually underscores the problem.

Sure. But I'm not interested in determining blame. I'm looking for ideas.

On the second count... when just suggesting what needs to get done, actual enforcement is a key thing to point out. Immigration control away from the borders hasn't been practiced much.

For the record, of course enforcement of existing laws should be done...and in a strict fashion.

 

The rest of your plan kind of hinges on this step. However, I have yet to see the evidence that building a wall would 1) be effective in stopping migrants or 2) be economically feasible relative to any strain illegal immigration may put on the economy (presuming even that illegal immigration is a net negative to the economy, which I think is a false presumption).

I don't think either of these things is true. I don't think the US-Mexico border is securable in the way that you seem to want. Moreover, as I said, I don't think illegal immigration has a net negative impact on our society or economy.

For me, the key is documentation. We just need to get everybody on the books. Essentially, what we need is an amnesty and a guest worker program.

 

I don't think either of these things is true. I don't think the US-Mexico border is securable in the way that you seem to want. Moreover, as I said, I don't think illegal immigration has a net negative impact on our society or economy.

Did you see the pictures? When a society is overrun with illegals it is always a drain. Schools, health care, crime, welfare all take a hit.

In the last four years AZ has fell to number 50 for education and rose to #1 for violent crime. Much of that is due to illegal immigration.

For me, the key is documentation. We just need to get everybody on the books. Essentially, what we need is an amnesty and a guest worker program.

This has been done repeatedly over the last 25 years and hasn't worked. What is different now that you think it will work this time?

 

Edit: Actually, I can read. Though what I posted would not have you believe it. Need to do a bit more thinking and researching before asking that question.

 

I see two options. One, you make it that to be a citizen at birth, a parent has to have been here legally, be it as a citizen, resident, or visa. Or, you make it so that you can deport someone even if they subsequently had a child here, and acknowledge its the parent putting the child into a bad position there.

Well, building a fence does work. Building a fence near San Diego pushed a lot of the illegal immigrants into Arizona and New Mexico where there wasn't a fence in the way. Now, if a fence is feasible for the whole border or not is a debateable matter, but at least parts of it being walled off have proven useful.
As for the cost, well, there have been studies suggesting 12 Americans are murdered each day by illegal immigrants and 13 are killed in accidents caused by illegal immigrants that are drunk. A very large share of warrants in L.A. are for illegal immigrants. And that doesn't cover any financial issues, either.

You're right. When Reagan had the amnesty, that stopped illegal immigration as an issue.
Amnesty and guest worker programs will solve nothing, in large part because they ignore WHY illegals are often hired in the first place. Its cheaper to hire an illegal immigrant because they are less likely to file for workers comp or report other problems in the work place. Creating legal workers will just lead to new illegal immigrants taking the same jobs where they can be mistreated. The guest worker programs that have been suggested are filled with holes and don't fix the problems. Further, the idea that we will offer future amnesties will be another reason to try to come here illegally, and it ignores those that are waiting for their chance to come here legally and show respect for our laws.

Fair enough, but still, if you're suggesting what needs to be done, enforcement of current laws should be on there since its not happening now.

 

Did you see the pictures? When a society is overrun with illegals it is always a drain. Schools, health care, crime, welfare all take a hit.


It is an odd feeling to see pictures here of an area that I have spent a considerable amount of time around. I am surrounded by the same things you are, and yet my opinions certainly differ from yours.

Just an observation.

 

Care to go into detail?

 

Of this I am aware, which is why I wrote prosecution, not write, implement, and prosecute a bunch of new laws. If it is a question of making a check easier for the employers, this should be a fairly straight forward thing. At the end of the day I'm convinced that all other avenues are doomed to failure. The laws of supply and demand really aren't something you can legislate. If there is work to be had, they will get here to have the work.
It's not dissimilar to the 'drug war' issue.

 

The US' problem is that you lack a managed migration programme.

I've looked into a bit and frankly, you could learn a hell of a lot from us. Now I know someone is going to point to the border, but if you think that the border is what is your biggest issue, then I don't know what to tell you.

Consider; what's US Immigraiton/DHS doing in Mexico?

How many places do you have in Mexico for US immigration officers to liaise with Mexican immigration officials?

What's the annual legal migration target, by demographic breakdown?

What's your equivalent of a 457 skilled migration visa?

Now I know people are going to suggest the only problem with unlawful non-citizens in the US is the border with Mexico, but that's frankly an intensely superficial understanding and frankly thinking like that, whilst encouraged by people with an agenda, serves noone.

Building a fence won't solve **** - it will just give the illusion of a solution which will appease some but falls far short of anything substantial.

Now, just to deflate that argument about borders, do any of you have any idea how many unlawfuls we catch in Australia each year?

I thought not.

Bear in mind countries over most of Europe are desperate to learn how we do what we do so well and they have landlocked borders too. If you're interested in reading how a good migration regime works, this is a start.

The US needs to radically reshape it's legal migration. That means making legal migration a more practical reality, working with source/transit countries like Mexico, and installing a much tougher Compliance regime.

E_S

 

Ender, all due respect, but that post came off much more as a "well, you're just doing it wrong" with a list of questions rather than suggesting what should be done about it beyond "fix it" at the end.

First of all, I would ask how it is that you say the border with Mexico has nothing to do with it? It is most certainly not the biggest issue, but you act as though it doesn't really matter that that border is there, ignoring that of the 10 to 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States right now, more than half came here illegally without inspection (borders and ports). That would be 6 to 7 million of the illegal immigrants presently here. (http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/19.pdf)
The Mexican border IS the largest source of that group entering the country illegally. You mention that the fence would do nothing, though fences on the border have led to disruptions of the flow of illegals across that border. The practicality of the fence, or if it is worth the cost, would be a topic of debate, but to say fences do nothing when we've built some and they have seems to be turning a blind eye to the whole matter.

Which is not to say that there isn't additional issues that need work. There needs to be a much better job done when it comes to those overstaying visas as well, and punishment for those that hire illegal immigrants. I also think the paperwork involved in immigrating here should be simplified drastically and oppose the fee increase, and we should raise the numbers we allow to immigrate here legally to get more people in proper channels while we remove those that have refused to try to use the proper channels in coming here.

Now that I've put out a view, a few questions of what you didn't clarify:

Since I couldn't find it, how many illegal immigrants are entering Australia, either per day or per year?

What would you suggest to make legal migration more practical?

How would you suggest working with Mexico, when the Mexican gov't has frequently made demands of how the U.S. handles its citizens that are here illegally with the utmost care while Mexico deports anyone caught coming across their southern border? The Mexican gov't has activly helped illegal immigrants to the U.S. by giving information about how to cross successfully, so how do you suggest one negotiate so they cease exporting their population into the U.S.?

What would you do to ensure compliance with immigration law?

 

The US needs to radically reshape it's legal migration. That means making legal migration a more practical reality, working with source/transit countries like Mexico, and installing a much tougher Compliance regime.

There are two issues here that you are ignoring:

1) Mexico does not cooperate with us on this issue. A huge percentage of the money made by illegals is sent back to families in Mexico. They don't want this to stop.

2) Mexico has a struggling third world economy. It has a population of 100 million citizens. The US has at minimum 10 million Mexican citizens living here illegally. This means that, at the very least, a full 10% of Mexico's citizenship lives in the US illegally. I have also read that a full 35% of Mexico's working age men live in the US...both legally and illegally.

Keep in mind that I support making it easier to migrate to the US, we also have to keep in mind that for the Mexican economy to have more than a temporary boost Mexico has to have workers and consumers.

 

Nearly every urban professional working couple with children in the U.S. has an illegal immigrant working for them. Sometimes more than one. A nanny, sometimes two nannies for the "power couples", plus an illegal housekeeper.

Here's the plan. Go to any city park with a playground in the U.S. during business hours on a weekday. It will be full of illegal immigrants taking care of American kids. Wait for the parents to come home after work and arrest them. Throw them in jail and charge them back taxes on their illegal employees.

Do the same thing for home construction projects and gardening work.

Start by socking it to the upper middle class Americans who hire illegal immigrants for their domestic chores: home improvement, gardening, daycare and housecleaning. These jobs are staffed upwards of 90% I would say by undocumented workers.

If you scare Americans by hitting them where they live - you will solve a big chunk of the immigrant problem within seconds.

Illegal farm workers: different problem. American agriculture doesn't work without them. Maybe we could supply the farms with slave prison labor.

 

Alright Jabba, your home made statistics aside, answer this:

If it is unconstitutional to ask someone about their immigration status based on nationality, how can you make the leap to suspect an employer of hiring them illegally when you have no legal justification to suspect the individual is illegal in the first place?

 

All employers work under some kind of regulatory framework, unless their entire business model is based on illegal activity. Simply create the requirement that anyone who employs a domestic worker produce evidence that the worker is legal. If the entire employer/employee relationship is off the books, then of course you have multiple opportunities for prosecuting the parents. You don't have to talk to the illegal immigrant at all. Talk to the employer.

As you say, it's mostly a matter of enforcement. Get rid of this safe harbor for illegal immigrants, and you will undermine the viability of remaining in the U.S.

Across the board, the problem will be solved immediately if you go after the employers and nail them to the wall. Nail the big business, the small business, the family employing the illlegal worker in the home.

 

That's the best solution but who's going to do it? These politicians receive money from big businesses.

 

Simply create the requirement that anyone who employs a domestic worker produce evidence that the worker is legal.

Except that J-Rod is correct in this case.

In 1986, well before the current focus, Congress passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) which actually did impose fines against companies who employed illegal aliens.(and in some cases, criminal penalties if the company did it willingly and/or with prior knowledge)

The focus was placed squarely on the company to follow the requirements, and not the individual, which seems exactly what you're calling for above.

Except the ACLU initiated a series of legal challenges against the law, which effectively gutted it. *NOTE-This is not a attack on the entirity of the ACLU. The organization has its place, but they are just as likely as any other organization to make poor/short-sighted decisions.

Trujillo V Kansas City was one such court case that the ACLU took on action on. In a nutshell, Ricahrd Trujillo marked "yes" that he was a US citizen on a job application. The company fired him when he could not prove he actually was a citizen. The ACLU challenged on the grounds that the company had no right to inquire about his immigration status, and the courts ruled in favor for Trujillo.

If Trujillo marked "no," then the company could have fired him for cause, but it couldn't compel him to reveal his immigration status, even if the employee lied on an application. After Trujillo, companies are not supposed to hire undocumented workers, but cannot take action unless the person willingly devulges that they are in fact, illegal. It makes no sense to try an enforce a law if all the person has to do is check "yes" on an application.

That's why it now falls to the INS/ICE and the IRS to back-check things like social security numbers and such. Where the ACLU was short-sighted was because they removed the focus away from big business, and forced the focus back to the individual. If the ACLU was smart, they would have allowed immigration to be a business regulation, and not an enforcement activity.

If INS/ICE finds an instance of a fake SS#, it can take action, but the agency has to be looking for it, which is time consuming. It's also why the big stories in the news revolve around dozens of undocumented workers being rounded up, but nothing really happening to the company.

 

It's a total copout to blame the ACLU. If we were serious as a nation about enforcing employment laws relating to illegal workers, we would find a way to do it. The real truth is that interest in enforcing the laws is minimal, because illegal workers are so valuable to the economy, particularly to the people who hire them, as FID notes. The people who control the lobbying purse strings have no interest in enforcing these laws.

Building walls and punishing the illegals will never work as long as the economic incentives to come here outweigh the costs of circumventing the walls.

But let's be honest: we're all enjoying the economic benefits of illegal labor as consumers of goods and services. On the one hand it suppresses wages, on the other hand it makes the cost of living cheaper for all of us. As a society, we've made the practical choice that the benefits outweigh the costs.