Lit The concept of canon: good or bad?

Okay is a way to see it, but then none of the other survivors are “Jedi” either because they dropped their vows and all.

Yes but it certainly makes the Yoda Dark Side thing more flexible. As Luke went there and clearly came back, as did Vader.

And it drives him insane and it really does not work properly.

Really? Can't recall any of the top of the my head. Jaina might count but then she is rather powerful in the force.

It is 25000 years, only natural for them to vary in power and importance.

Not really

"Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you."


Nothing in that precludes a spirit from still being able to connect to the force.

Either they do not know how (yet) or it is too dangerous for them.

 

I'm not defending the nature, quality, or integrity of Lucas's inconsistency. I'm defending his right to do it; a right, per the canon hierarchy, that was his and his alone.

I won't apologize for criticizing the EU for behavior that gets the franchise's highest creative authority crucified by Litizens everywhere.

 

Hmm, now there's an idea..... Nails? Check. Tiber? Check.

Of course, if we really wanted to crucify Lucas we'd have stopped buying the comics, the books, the DVDs, the Blu-Rays, the multiple editions.... Yeah, we really hate the guy, we just keep putting money in his coffers.

 

Never said you hated him lol. But he is criticized for his treatment of the EU; I sympathize, but I like to be evenhanded with my criticism.

 

Thing is Sable, it was all so avoidable, but that's true of all of Lucas' mis-steps since 1999. There's some really great stuff in the PT but it sure is near buried under a mountain of dreck.

 

Agreed, but then I feel the same way about the EU. Which is why I would support a reboot of the entire continuity. For me, the number of genuinely good works (film or EU) are collectively very, very, VERY few.

 

I'm quite sceptical a reboot will supply what you're seeking Sable.

 

we;re in the middle of a reboot, and nobody's noticing, which is ok with me.

 

Perhaps, perhaps not. With Disney holding the reins, one never knows. But like a certain charming galactic sovereign, I am willing to exchange the mangled, marred version for the promise of a newer, healthier, stronger version. XD

 

I clearly bought into the EU as they envisioned it more completely than anyone at LFL could have ever anticipated, and now I am paying dearly for it, when it was the thing that made Star Wars unique.

 

See, the Mouse is nothing is nothing if not gluttonous in its corporate appetite. Therefore I wouldn't be surprised if, by some creative solution, they engineer a way to have their cake and eat it.

BUT, at the same time, most preferred corporate solutions are:

 

If we had more Yoda: Dark Rendezvous and less... Well, mostly everything else, I'd be right there with you.

 

Agreed, it's really lame.

TOR has a ton of issues in general, not sure it's fair to blame the EU as a whole for one or two outlier sources.

Unless you're Jacen Solo or Vestara LOL!

Supposedly Vader can't use lightning because he's a robot, not because he isn't powerful enough. Which was always an unsatisfactory explanation to me, because it's not even real electricity. Anyway the EU's overuse of this ability bothers me less than Dooku using it in AOTC and being utterly ineffective with it. That did a lot more harm to the power's mystique than the EU ever did, imo.

It's kind of derivative, but it was in the service of one of the best EU stories there is, so I give it a pass. Mathematically, the KOTOR 2 purge wasn't nearly as effective or comprehensive as Palpatine's purge, anyway.

1) Force ghosts are an embodiment of the Force, why wouldn't they be able to use it? How could they manifest at all if they're not using it? 2) Midi-chlorians are dumb.

Also lame.

Almost all applications of the Force on a cosmic scale were only possible through external devices or unique aberrations. The Sith Emperor might be an exception because the TOR writers want him to be the best at everything but I haven't played the game so idk. I guess Palpatine is an exception too since he could create wormholes and suck the lifeforce out of everyone on Byss without any crystals or amulets or focusing temples, but I don't have a problem with him being that powerful because he's Palpatine.

 

And _Catherine_ does what I couldn't find the words to say.

 

Okay, direct contradictions of established facts are one thing, buy why should short comments from characters with a limited perspective be considered an objective statement?

Obi Wan says the Jedi were the guardians of blah blah blah before the Empire? He's saying it in broad strokes and doesn't need to get into the Jedi's history of waxing and waning. The Empire's bad, that's what he's getting at, Luke doesn't need a history lesson.

Obi Wan says Yoda will always be with Luke? He means the standard "he will always live on inside" you platitude, not just the force ghost thing.

Yoda says the dark side will always dominate your destiny? He's speaking as a guy who's had dogma ingrained in him for hundreds of years, and he was part of one the relatively sheltered iterations of the order who haven't gone nose to nose with darksiders like the guys who fought Exar Kun.

Obi Wan saying the force can influence the weak minded? He's a smug dick.

 

Calling Obi-Wan a smug dick, and I know it is a joke, but that kind of a fix is the sort of thing I mean when I say the EU warps the intent. If we take the example seriously, I'd feel pretty confident in saying it was intended as exposition on the Force and what Obi-Wan just did rather than commentary on his character. The EU breaks from this and then as a fix the original intent is lost and the rule set is broken.

 

Really? I was under the impression you two approached this from entirely different angles. She acknowledges that the EU did step on George's toes (even if it was part of a story she liked). You seemed to think the EU didn't make such mistakes.

 

I thought about making a new thread for this, as I felt it could generate some interesting discussion, but I'll leave it here, since I don't think every single open thread should be discussing the future of the EU.

This quick exchange raises an interesting point for me: namely, how often should intricate storytelling be sacrificed at the alter of accessibility?

Of course, I acknowledge that the Star Wars films are a cultural phenomenon, and in comparison the EU might as well be an obscure niche. While I have absolutely no statistical evidence to back this up, I imagine the overwhelming majority of "first Star Wars novels" are not purchased after doing hours of research trying to find the best possible beginning place, but by going to a bookstore and buying whatever looks good on the shelf. It's not quite like a series like A Song of Ice and Fire or Wheel of Time, where if you pick up a book that clearly says "BOOK 5 OF THE ____ SERIES", you deserve all the confusion you're likely to get. In a sense, you have to make each Star Wars book somewhat accessible.

But I have to wonder at how much is sacrificed because of that. People have taken a liking to comparing the Star Wars universe to the DC or Marvel universe since the Disney buyout, and for good reason. One could argue that, because of the dwindling sales of the comic book industry and the constant need to pull in new readers, the stories themselves are stuck in perpetual limbo, never being allowed to truly change for any long periods of time. There's an invisible glass ceiling; the universe can give the illusion of development, but it can never develop to a state that would be unrecognizable to a reader picking the stories up for the first time. In this, I think the "hardcore fans" (I dislike that term, as to me it suggests a kind of elitist sect that makes a conscious effort to be unwelcoming to new readers) suffer. Should hardcore readers be willing to make some sacrifices in order to insure success for a universe they're invested in, or is it unfair to them to simply everything and sacrifice depth in an attempt to bring in new readers?

So my question is this: should a Star Wars franchise focus on telling self-contained stories that are accessible to all, stories that are connected but only in a superficial way? Or should it focus on building a detailed, intricate universe that, while perhaps uninviting, is infinitely more rewarding for those who choose to take the plunge and get into the universe? Should it aim for a balance of the two? It should be noted that I don't feel the EU has ever truly reached this balance; Bantam leaned toward the standalone stories, where Del Ray jumped right into the NJO.

I imagine it's fairly obvious which one I favor. I understand the desire to want to jump in to whatever story just came out, but frankly, I find this desire lazy, and detrimental to the universe as a whole. It requires a writer to simply everything and to disregard any potential growth. As I mentioned with the comic book universes, they aren't ever allowed to truly grow, and I'd hate to find Star Wars in a situation where the long term readers who support the universe through thick and thin aren't allowed to see a pay off all for the sake of the abstract "new reader" who may or may not even be real. Yes, a more cohesive SW universe would require some (gasp) effort on the part of the reader. But the good news is that it leads to such greater reward.

 

I can't stand Lucas' "vision" anymore, so I really don't care about what the EU did to contradict things I either don't care about or can't stand in the first place. Sure the EU has "silently contradicted" the films to a certain extent, but do you see me standing up for osik like TOR, no. Lucas has already done more to undermine himself than anything the EU ever did, while not even being phased by the post-NJO when it directly contradicts everything the films stand for.

 

Who knows, the old rules, don't apply anymore.

What will count now, is the Hidalgo-Chee story team, and who they put on it.
Whatever fits, the movies, and TV shows will stay, and what doesn't won't.

It will also depend, on how much The current team, asks for Pablo, and Leland's input.

From what Pablo has said, it;s going to stay one continuity, just adapted to fit around everything filmed, if it contradicts anything on film, or TV, it will be deemed non csnon.

 

Fair enough.

Then in practice, we aren't far apart: I can handle retcons if I like the new version compared to the old, which is why I don't mind much of TCW.

It just so happens that we differ in taste.

 

I heard TOR retconns part of DNT, and that plans were slowly underway to eventually retcon away the post NJO status qup, that was why Sue Rostini had to leave, and why they brought in Jennifer Heddle, but with the ST, they can now do a complete reboot post Endor.

 

The Star Wars I fell in love with hasn't truly existed since around June 2005, between RotS completing the saga and the start of the disastrous post-NJO with DNT. I can't stand TCW because I don't understand how Anakin Skywalker is ever supposed have a Padawan, i.e. Ahsoka Tano, and I will not abide so many aspects I like about RotS and its novelization being undermined by TCW. I didn't even know the Star Wars I fell in love with ceased to exist so soon after RotS, because I only read the NJO a few years ago, and, therefore, wasn't really in touch with what was occurring as it happened beyond the PT. I again edited my post after you quoted it, but I think you got my point.

 

There's room for both The Random Continuing Adventures of Characters From the Movies (Han and Chewbacca fight zombies! Anakin and Ahsoka fail to capture Grievous again!) and narrative-focused stories that work toward a pre-planned goal or endgame. The problem is that most of the worldbuilding you're talking about only takes place after the fact in the Essential Guides and RPG sourcebooks. For all its faults, the NJO knew that it was trailblazing a new era and that it had a specific story to tell that would alter the status quo in a set number of ways. The post-NJO has been largely directionless and disconnected; there's no sense of forward momentum because half of every new story is spent undoing what happened in the story that came before.

By all means keep putting out random untold tales from the Clone Wars and Rebellion, but why not put together a few story groups to balance those with some lengthier, more heavily serialized stories in other eras? Like the NJO except better planned and with more communication between the writing team, or TOR except with good ideas. They could do one post-Crucible, one in the New Sith Wars, one in the mid-to-late Dark Times, one in the Xim era, one for each of the Great Schisms. Not all at once, but it would be cool to have at least one era-blazing mega-arc at a time to offset all the post-Yavin time distortions and nine-book mistakes.

 

I'm sorry, I think you have Lit confused with the Episode VII forum.