Characters The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) FOTJ: OMEN now out - what's next for J/J?

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by Jaina_Jag_Index, Jul 26, 2005.

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  1. carr3107 Jedi Knight

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    [ As for her parents abondoning her - I don't think Leia abandoned her. She sent Jag. That was the best she could do, and she agknowledged the fact. Sending Jag was the best thing, really, because it allowed their relationship to fester, him to get under her radar. Then he was there for her later, when she really needed him. That's major insight on Leia's part. DJ is filled with such raw emotion; I think that's why people love it so much.

    Luke send Jag to Jaina, too, in Exile. But that's the only thing he's really done for Jaina in LOTF. That's okay, though. It makes her a better character, because of what she had to face. She went into the series as a character that most readers were fed up with, and came out shining.[/quote]

    IIRC, Leia leaves Hapes with Han in tow because Ta'Chume was going to either force H&L to support a marriage between Jaina and Isolder or close Hapes to refugees. Jag walked in on an attempt to do that that resulted in fracturing Han's skull. Leia sends Jag after her with the words -- and she emphasizes them very strongly - "tell her I trust her to find her way back."

    Mara and Jaina are written as very close until Mara (as her Master) has Ben. Then it's all about Ben, even when he's in the Maw. One way to look at it is Luke is all the Jedi's commanding officer and that has responsibilities to all the Jedi under his command. I think Jaina's issues from the YV war are worse because it started earlier for her (she was in the military almost at the start) and her training ended sooner. Jacen's torture was really awful but his experience of the war was very personal and centered around him. Jaina has abandonment issues and by the end of the war, she's lost Chewie, Anakin, Jacen and Mara on a practical level, almost all of her friends and more wingmen and pilots under her command than she can count. She is just as scarred as Jacen. At 19 she has this tremendous responsibilty for the pilots she commands and she feels it throughout the rest of the books. She's very sensitive to the fact that she spends her time killing things and trying to keep her pilots from getting killed (she has this angry monologue with Jacen on Mon Cal right after he comes back from Vergere) and she hates it.

    Jaina goes completely off the rails in DN. Mara actually makes things worse. Jaina's parents are really angry, but they spend some time trying to figure out what the underlying issue is and then deal with it. There's a line at the beginng of TJK where H or L says that Jaina was as big a hero in her own war as her parents were in their. I think it was as much Luke's responsibility to have addressed Jacen's issues as his parents. More if you remember that Jacen was Luke's apprentice.

    I'm a little off topic here, and I don't want to start a bashing war, but ....
    I think H&L are really written as better parents than L&M. I have huge issues with Leia being written as unavailable. She was a working mother. She appears to have spent a lot of time with her kids for a working parent, she had a mostly stay at home husband and quality child care. I've only skimmed YJK, but I remember Jaina and Jacen having limits and being told no. (Jaina desperately wanted a ship like some of her friends) and she was told no. Ben, on the other hand, should have been told no when it came to Jacen and the GAG, if not sooner, and he wasn't. If you remember, in Betrayal, half of the reason Ben wanted to stay in the GAG was so he didn't have to go to school. Then again, Ben is written as distant from his father for no real reason, so maybe it's more equal opportunity bad parenting.

    Jaina is very accomplished, but it's a lot of things outside the Order (the military, etc). Apparently running herself ragged carrying out the Jedi mission after the war doesn't count. She is the more marital of the twins--she got Tsvong Lah. I suspect that she is actually the better swordsman. She was at least Jacen's equal at the end of TUF (where she got totally screwed by Luceno) and presumably she practiced in the inter
  2. Darkwriter Force Ghost

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    Jan 28, 2006
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    Wow! I agree with a lot of the things you said, carr. Very insightful. Here's my spin...

    As for sexism in Star Wars: I've always felt that Star Wars had stronger female characters than most fantasy books. I really love that you get original, firey, women who face their problems head-on, who most men in Star Wars would think twice about dueling. My sexism comment was just something inspired by someone who said that Leia seemed to be taking the back seat to Luke now (or something like that). My moment of inspiration led me to discover that this has been happening subtly with all the leading female roles lately. Both Leia and Mara have become respectfully submissive to Luke - which is perfectly reasonable, as he's the grandmaster. Through DN and LOTF, Mara pretty much said and did whatever Luke said and did. The only time she seemed to have a will of her own (or go against her husband) was when she got ticked off at Jacen. Even THEN she reaped the consequenced, for acting in her own right. And while Leia and Han have a completely equivocal relationship, Leia's powerful role has been somewhat diminished in the recent books. From Han's POV, she's just as potent as ever. But to the reader, she's been snuffed. She's been running from Jacen, and submitting to Luke.

    Jaina, while her character has been growing significantly, also suffers from the same symptoms. When Leia and Jaina get really angry about the stunt Ben pulled in Invincible, they let Luke and Ben put them in thier place. While Luke was right to some extent (his visions came in handy, and Jacen needed to BELIEVE that he hadn't been setup), deception is not a Jedi facet. Futhermore, allowing his own sister and neice to become decieved was downright cruel. And the way he explained it to them was a form of ridicule.

    I suppose I could go on to say that Jag knocking some sense into Jaina was a form of sexism, but I actually liked that and thought in needed to be done. It was just that he was the only one who knew how to do it.

    Tenel Ka allowed herself to become manuevered by Jacen. Granted, she totally got him back when she tried to blow him up. That was worth it.

    I agree that H/L are better parents than L/M. Jaina may not like it, but H/L had a plan, and they stuck to it. L/M change course every other book. Jaina's an awesome character, when people don't take her at face value. You have to really understand what she's been through to get her. I'm kind of mad that Luke and Mara's relationship toward everyone changed after they had Ben, but I guess that's the way it goes. Still, I don't know why it has to diminish their relationship with the Solos. They're still family.

    The thing is, it's the fanboys who are over at starwars.com, telling Sue Rostoni that "we" don't want a tragedy like LOTF any more. But honestly, I love the way LOTF turned out. Despite a few qualms, I think Denning and Allston have been doing great things with these characters. There's such character development, but the "fanboys" want none of that. When I read some of their comments, I am sorely tempted to write to Sue and say, "Don't listen to them...I love what you're doing. Keep it up." We're moving somewhere deep and literary. I think it's beautiful. I understand why Anakin had to die, why Jacen had to fall. It doesn't mean I LIKE it - I just understand.
  3. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

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    Yeah, I had an uncle who was fun until he had kids :(

    The thing with Luke and Mara is that she almost died and they didn't think they were going to be able to have kids and she wasnted one so sadly that Ben was a miracle. And then he had emotional issues from feeling what happened to other Jedi in the Force when he was a baby so they tip-toed around. But really, he got everything he wanted and Luke and Mara didn't pay attention to/undervalued Jaina.

    I like what you guys said about everyone submitting to Luke, whether it's sexism or because he's become a poorly-written character. I think Han still really respects Leia, but lately it seems that Luke listens to two people: Luke and Ben.
  4. Darkwriter Force Ghost

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    That's why I didn't like when Leia became a Jedi (for real). I think it's important for her to learn that stuff, but I don't think she's been so "Leia" anymore. In the NJO she was all politician. I liked her in Balance Point. I like when she's defined by herself, not the Jedi. That way, she allows her own self image define herself as a politician. As a Jedi, she is much more constricted. Jaina's unique, because she defines herself by herself, and that conflicts with her Jedi self. She's finally getting ahold on "controlling her emotions" and "being a Jedi," and I think that helps develop her character in a really neat way. But ultimately, she'll have to leave the Jedi. The reason Jaina fights is the same reason Leia fights: because it's what she has to do, because innocents matter to her. It's a selfless thing. It's a thing that rings of the Princess Leia we know from the movies. That's probably why I like Jaina better as a pilot than a Jedi. Pilots and politicians, while they have their restrictions, allow the characters to bring some of themselves to the job. Jedi only have room to grow if they're like Jacen or Luke, and are interested in exploring the boundaries of the Force.

    Han definitely respects Leia. I think that's one of the best relationships in Star Wars---not just because it's classic, but because it's so undeniably EQUAL. Jaina and Jag's relationship is the same way, to some extend. There's some fluctuation, but it all balances out. Zekk takes the backseat to Jaina, but Jag demands to be leveled with her. Another reason I like these couples is becuase their relationships aren't defined by the Jedi, or the Force. It's just something annoying they have to deal with. Han and Leia wouldn't mind if Jaina didn't use the Force---it doesn't define them, like it does Luke and Mara. The thing that's wrong with the notion of Jaina not using the Force is that it's a part of who she is. It doesn't define her; but it's her heritage. It's an ingredient, but it's not the cake.

    Luke didn't even listen to MARA, when she was having those hunches about Jacen. Everyone has selective listening to some extent, though. Jaina didn't accept Jacen as truly gone until Invincible. Zekk still thinks Jaina's in love with him.
  5. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

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    I agree 100% with everything you said :D
  6. Earthknight Jedi Master

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    You know what, other than Dark Empire I can't recall a time when Luke and Leia were on a mission together. Just the two of them. I really do think Jaina, Leia, Luke, and Ben need to go on some type of trip just so they can bond better. Lately Ben and Luke seem distant from Leia and Jaina. That's not right. For family who live in the same complex they should be close.
  7. carr3107 Jedi Knight

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    True, although she was actively involved in trying to stop him long before that, which I think was much harder on her.

    I don't think the Jag/Jaina/lightsaber thing in Fury was sexist, aside from Jag feeling lousy about having to do it. As humiliating as it was for Jaina, it was about Jag trying to get her to shift her focus in a constructive way. Jaina/Jag have mostly been in the same chain of command, with the occupant of the top spot alternating.

    Leia and Jaina are similar in that they don't fit in any particular mold. It makes them harder to write and easy to misinterpret. I think what further skews things is that the most vocal science fiction readers tend to be men who do not have the most gender enlightened viewpoint. Unconsciously or not, they're looking for manly uber-male characters and women who need to be saved. If it doesn't fit in either category, they'll either will it to go there or complain to the heavens. I.e., how Jacen got from being a pacifistic animal lover to the bestest warrior ever whose lightsaber skills could beat everyone. At once. Only in fanboy nirvana.
  8. Darkwriter Force Ghost

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    Jan 28, 2006
    star 4
    So true about Leia and Jaina. As writers, it's important for us to remember. They are the perfect example of the anti-Mary Sue! I've read a bit of cliche high fantasy books (because it's all our bookstore HAS), and the heroes in that are always really buff and macho. It's annoys me. I used to love Jacen as a hero BECAUSE of his sensitivity and empathy. Other cliche heroes are TOO sensitive. Then all the girls are either like, "Save me!" or "Ha. Look at me. I can fight." IMO, Tenel Ka turned cliche. She used to be so awesome. (But I did like how she basically said to Jacen, "You broke my heart. So now you must die." Why couldn't Padme be like this?) Jag, to some extent, is "macho" but he's not over-the-top about it. He's got more of a macho mindset than anything else---and even that isn't totally macho. He's complex. Jaina's complex. Even Han is complex.

    But the opposite is still cliche: macho-women, and men who need to be saved. I love how the characters in Star Wars always have facets of both. I love how they have FLAWS. Let's just hope the fanboys don't ruin it for us by complaining to Sue. We should all go over there in mass squadrons and wipe them off the face of the planet. I love that the character are deep, if stubborn. It's a mark of good writing. Please, let us be literary, and don't take us down a dark, dark path of cliche, uber-males, and damsels in distress!

    I don't really feel Jag was being sexist in Fury. He did the right thing. The only way it couldn't have been construed as sexist at all would be if Leia or Tenel Ka had done it. Leia would not do such a thing, and Jaina has a knack for pushing her away. TK didn't see enough of Jaina to understand what was going on, and she'd probably sick Jag on her anyhow. Jag's the only one who really understand how Jaina takes things, and he's the only one willing to take the "glowy end" of her lightsaber. Besides, we see again and again that with one flick of her wrist, she can send him flying - literally. So Jag needs as much leverage as he can get.
  9. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

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    I agree, it wasn't sexist, just necessary for the way they'd taken the characters. Just another facet of their relationship.
  10. carr3107 Jedi Knight

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    I just read the first Legacy TPB. Sia? Princess Leia with a lightsaber. Without getting into a huge discussion here, there are hints all over the place in both the art and the story. The Legacy discussion is relevant to J/J, but if we're looking for clues to the backstory, I think it's most relevant to examine the state of the EU at the time DH mapped Legacy out vs the state of the EU now.

    How much say do the authors get in determining major character directions? I know there's a raging debate about who decided Anakin Solo had to die.

    Sue, DH and the various LOTF authors have all played very coy on J/J. Too coy. Is it possible that LFL/DR "fixed" Jaina's future when they authorized Legacy? I think there's a strong argument that Jaina's future was as mapped out as Jacen's by the time they outlined DN. Jag was a strong secondary character in the EU, but there's no reason for him to have appeared or been mentioned in every book after NJO (except for Bloodlines?) unless he had to be there as part of some long term plan. Although Denning really likes Jaina, Jag is not one of his pet characters. Given that he's partial to the YJKs and he hooked up Tenel Ka and Jacen, you would expect him to really put Jaina with Zekk if he had the authortity to do that.

    Aisde from Jacen and dead Mara, Jag is literally the only other person Jaina even thinks about when she's on Mandalore. I can't imagine Traviss would have bothered mentioning Jag in the mando mando mando story unless she was basically told to, let alone in the way she did.

    I think that given the direction we got (however subtle) in LOTF, the Zekk book and what we've heard about FOTJ, there's no real argument that Jaina winds up with Zekk. I don't think DR is going to be gutsy enough for a fabulous single Jaina (SW doesn't work that way) and they aren't going to introduce a new character as a love interest. So either they've written themselves into a corner with J/J or it was the plan all along.

    Thoughts?
  11. Earthknight Jedi Master

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    I think it's the plan all along for J/J. But the prolong it on purpose because many writers feel it fun to prolong relationships. It makes the reader keep coming back to find out if the couple finally gets together. Jaina/Jag will become fully official when the time is right. Right now, they're time period is in too much disarray thanks to Caedus and his inspiration on everyone. When things settle down then they can settle down.
  12. Darkwriter Force Ghost

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    Jaina will NEVER settle down.

    I think it's a good thing, if frustrating, that the relatipnship was prolonged. If you read Jag in DJ and Jag in Fury, there's a huge difference. A lot of character development. Their relationship matured a lot, even though they're both being supremely immature about it. Jaina couldn't have gotten married at 21, or even 25. 30 is a good age for her, because she's one of those women who needs to make a difference in the world. Jag is one of those men who needs the traditional way. They're a lot like Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Henry B. Stanton, in my opinion. He's got to be willing to let her do her thing, and she's got to be willing to let him be a man.

    While Denning doesn't play with Jag specifically, Allston does. And besides: Jag and Jaina were such a dynamic couple by the end of the NJO, with a connection that sparked like Han and Leia's, that the authors would be fools not to take advantage of it. Jacen never had a relationship like the one Jaina had with Jag in the NJO. Anakin and Tahiri, while sweethearts, did not even approach that level (probably because Anakin died). The J/J relationship reeks distinctly of the OT. Naturally, SW authors would want to capitalize on that.

    That said, I wonder how Jaina and Jag would deal with their children. Jag's family stayed together, for the most part, and Jaina wants to keep her family together. I can't see them sending their kids away; but with all she's been through, she won't want to lose another person. In fact, considering how young Anakin died, how Jacen was tainted, I'd think she's be terrified of losing her children. One of the reasons she won't commit herself to Jag is because she's afraid of losing him.

  13. carr3107 Jedi Knight

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    I wish they'd drop this "settle" concept. Jaina's life is always going to have conflict. She and Jag are better together than apart. As long as their goals are complimentary, they should be dealing with them together. Why in the hell Jaina's got to save the galaxy single-handed before she can think about dealing with her own life I don't know. I do concur that she was nowhere near ready to get married at 21 or even 26.

    I think it's been talked about here, but Jaina has major abandonment issues to start with and 2 dead brothers, a dead surrogate father and a dead aunt/master don't help. Her experience of war and strife is to be the one left alive. For someone with the abandonment issues she has, that's torture. She's further been forced to put duty ahead of every single important relationship she has/had, over and over again. I can see how that makes her afraid to feel for anyone. What you see in NJO, particularly after SBS is that her coping skills aren't that good (neither are Jacen's). They've always had each other and are somewhat wary to trust others--with a famous family, it would be hard--strip that away and it's devastating. I have twin cousins who lived the first 22 years of their lives in lockstep. One got a separate life sooner and it was very hard on the one left behind.

    As for kids, I suspect she'd keep them very close. I don't think anyone can top her personal survival skills. I suspect she would teach them at home rather than send them away to the Academy.

    Edited to fix spelling/punctuation.
  14. Darkwriter Force Ghost

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    9 days left, I think. But over at the official starts, it looks like a lot of people have already gotten their books. They have a MF thread up already, and in the VIP thread, someone asked Sue about the FOTJ excerpt at the end of the book (this is heartening).

    Barnes' and Noble won't ship my book until the 21st. Which means I won't get it until a few days AFTER its released. Why didn't I just order at Amazon?
  15. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

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    I don't remember if it's been said before and I'm just out of it, but how long after MF is FOTJ?
  16. Chimpo_the_Sith Jedi Grand Master

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  17. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

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  18. Darkwriter Force Ghost

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    Anyone ever heard the remake of "Hurt" that Johnny Cash made before he died? I think it'd be a great song to do a Jaina songfic on (except I don't do songfic). Or a youtube video. I saw a youtube video about Jacen and Jaina to the music of "February Song" by Josh Groban. It was beautiful. I got shivers.
  19. Earthknight Jedi Master

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    Here's the official synopsis of Outcast. Another member posted this first in the Lit. forum. It's pretty shocking but I knew this had to be the case after all the weird stuff in LotF:

    After violent civil war, and the devastation wrought by the now-fallen Darth Caedus, the Galactic Alliance is in crisis -- and in need. From all corners, politicians, power brokers, and military leaders converge on Coruscant for a crucial summit to restore order, negotiate differences, and determine the future of their unified worlds. But even more critical, and far more uncertain, is the future of the Jedi.

    In a shocking move, Chief of State Natasi Daala orders the arrest of Luke Skywalker for failing to prevent Jacen Solo's turn to the dark side and subsequent reign of terror as a Sith Lord. But it's only the first blow in an anti-Jedi backlash fueled by a hostile government and suspicious public. When Jedi Knight Valin Horn, scion of a politically influential family, suffers a mysterious psychotic break and becomes a dangerous fugitive, the Jedi become the target of a media-driven witch-hunt. Facing conviction on the damning charges, Luke has only one choice. He must strike a bargain with the calculating Daala: his freedom in exchange for his exile -- from Coruscant and from the Jedi Order.

    Now, though forbidden to intervene in Jedi affairs, Luke is determined to keep grim history from being repeated. With his son, Ben, at his side, Luke sets out to unravel the shocking truth behind Jacen Solo's corruption and downfall. But the secrets he uncovers among the enigmatic Force mystics of the distant world Dorin may bring his quest -- and life as he knows it -- to a sudden end. And all the while, another Jedi Knight, consumed by the same madness as Valin Horn, is headed for Coruscant on a fearsome mission that could doom the Jedi Order . . . and devastate the entire galaxy.


    I just hope this entity thing that claimed Jacen and now Valin's mind doesn't claim our Jaina [face_worried]. And sadly...it looks like her uncle will make his last stand in this series [face_plain].

    Theory: In the final book, it will be up to Ben and Jaina to stop this 'thing' in a final confrontation. Just them against this entity.
  20. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

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    Valin going crazy? Sounds crazy, but at least we'll get to see him a little.

    And weird, Luke leaving the Order. Geez, total weirdness :(


    Is this the first FOTR book?
  21. Earthknight Jedi Master

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    ^Yep. That is book one. This book sounds very emotional already.
  22. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

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    QFT, dude.
  23. Jaina_Jade_Fel Jedi Knight

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    NOooooooooo!!!! VALIN!!!!!!!!!!oh well. i'm sad to think that maybe Luke will finally, possibly, become one with the Force during this series. but, honestly, there better be Jaina SOMEWHERE in the books.

    has anyone gotten MF yet?
  24. Earthknight Jedi Master

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    Jaina was mentioned earlier in being in these books. But I'm guessing the main villain/entity kills Luke and Jaina and Ben (both being the main future of SW) have to fight this thing together at the end. Either way, expect this series to be very emotional but epic.
  25. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

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    I don't want Luke to die. I'm dreading it. He's big three.

    But at some point, he's got to, if from old age if nothing else. After the NJO ended I honestly didn't think they'd have any more big projects, so that the OT heroes wouldn't ever die. But now I'm not so sure, especially with DelRey's emphasis on realism and the fact that they're just going to keep making SW books as long as they can.



    I haven't read MF. It's not in at the library yet and I refuse to pay money for it. I've lost faith in SW books being worth $25.
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