Lit The Continuity Snarl Celebration thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012.

  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    A continuity snarl is something that is manifestly canon but makes no sense according to TV tropes.org. It's like Superman torturing Jimmy Olsen with lemonade while he's dying in the desert during the Silver Age or the time Batman killed with a gun. The EU has something of a history with continuity snarls recently.

    *cough*FORCE UNLEASHED*COUGH*
    *COUGH*The Clone Wars*cough*
    *choke*Jacen's fall*choke*

    This is a thread not to bury the Snarl but celebrate him. Basically, it's a thread to talk about the stuff in the timeline that manifestly DOES NOT MAKE *ANY* gosh darn sense either timeline-wise, thematically, or otherwise. Yet, it's not here to COMPLAIN about these things but talk about what you liked and didn't like about them.

    Because, really, at the end of the day it makes no sense for Luke Skywalker to more or less adopt Ken Palpatine as his little brother and serve as his guardian only for him to never be seen again. For Starkiller to be everything and a bag of chips to the Rebellion but no one remember the guy. For Jacen Solo to go from lovable doofus to annoying 1st year philosophy student to Messiah to Sith Lord.

    The Rules for the Thread are:

    1. Bring up something that doesn't make sense for you in the timeline. Discuss why and how.

    2. Talk about its place in canon and the contradiction.

    3. Say what you like about it anyway.

    Hatedom need not apply.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012
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  2. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I liked the Marvel story that involved Wedge. Fantastic story; too bad Janson dying prevents it from being canon.
  3. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    The character assassination of Jacen Solo, Messiah to Sith Lord, is something I simply can't comprehend, and is one of the reasons why the post-NJO has basically left me behind.
    GrandMasterKatarn likes this.
  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I'll start us off with some of my favorite continuity Snarls.

    1. The Rebel Force Books: The two and a half years between the Battle of Yavin and the Battle of Hoth are some of the busiest in the history of the timeline with few inconsistencies noted because, well, it's all pretty vague as to what's happening. The Rebel Force books, however, are ones I'm pretty sure are completely nonsensical in terms of their place in the timeline. They conflict with Classic Star Wars, Marvel Comics, and just about anything else set in the immediate aftermath of the book with more undoubtedly to come.

    My biggest complaint about them is the introduction of another planet in the same system as Alderaan. Something about this seems like they were trying to OBEY canon and this planet was possibly included in a guidebook somewhere but, yes, seriously there's supposed to be a fully populated world in the Alderaan system that was colonized by Alderaanians and which a bunch of said people flee too--only to get treated like garbage. This makes no sense to me because, really, it seems like the Death Star blowing up a world in their system would have been noteworthy. You can't lie about something like that as the EU said the Empire did.

    Still, I have nothing against the Rebel Force series as an epilogue to Ferus Olin. It's about a failed Jedi Knight trying to survive in the Post-Sith era and choosing to do something important (protect Leia) while adopting the persona of a oafish fop. This, by itself, makes no sense because you'd think people would NOTICE a Jedi Knight hanging around Bail Organa's court. Even if the guy has put on a few pounds and is kicking it back. I mean, ISB, you guys DO do your job, right? Vader, not visited Alderaan lately? Not seeing your old childhood friend hanging around? Oh well, the fact it ends with Olin's death felt right.

    I had fun with the books even if I felt they were very badly contradictory to the established timeline.

    Continuity Rating: C+

    2. Mandalore the Peaceful: Okay, I know, it's wrong of me to steal this one because so many people want to claim it for their own. Peaceful Mandalore is pretty much shooting the continuity of Mandalore all to hell. Karen Traviss took the Mandalorians and created her own little niche in the Star Wars universe only for the TV show to make an irreconcilable contradiction. Let's not pretend that Mandalore is a title for worlds, that the Mandalorians live on the moon of Concordia, or Death Watch is whatever. They're impossible to paste together, like duct-taping a cat and a dog together and pretending they're one animal.

    Which, however, do YOU prefer?

    While some people COULD blame the continuity snarl on George Lucas not caring, I like to take a more poetic approach to it. I think George Lucas and Karen Traviss had opposite views on what Star Wars was about. The ideal Mandalorian in fan's eyes is a creature which is a tough-as-nails warrior who lives for battle. Who never STOPS fighting and makes it his creed. In Karen's view, that makes him awesome. In George's view, that makes him a monster. I think it's the difference between a person who reports on war vs. a person who grew up in the shadow of Vietnam.

    I confess, Snarl wise, I prefer the Satine version of the Mandalorians. There's something profoundly satisfying to me that the whole Mandalorian ideal of "war first, war forever" was an adolescent power fantasy and that the Mandalorians eventually OUTGREW IT. That the only people who wanted to return to the time were essentially no different than Space Nazis (which George seems to be depicting them as).

    Mandalorians are still cool but in my own continuity, Canderous Ordo started the ball rolling for the Mandalorians to join the Republic...and thus saved his race from the nightmare of living as perpetual killers.

    Continuity Rating: A+ for replacement (YMMV)
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012
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  5. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Actually, the Mandalorians aren't really a legitimate continuity snarl anymore. Jason Fry's sorted out the entire situation via The Essential Atlas, The Essential Guide to Warfare, and the New Battlefronts Visual Guide. He duct-taped the dog and the cat, reconciling the irreconcilable in a way that worked wonderfully. Lucas' "my-way-only" vision was scaled back and made to get in line, and everything now fits together in a way that allows both incarnations of Mandalore and the Mandalorians to coexist in a logical and all-encompassing manner.
  6. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Cool, I'll have to buy those in order to find out how it all worked out.

    (Anyone want to give me the short version?)

    Though, honestly, in my view the reconciliation isn't necessarily a good thing. An interesting part of the Continuity Snarl is even if you DO make it all fit together, some of the nuance of the story might be lost.

    For example, "Last of the Jedi you will be" can easily be reconciled as Yoda being wrong or flat-out lying. Does it mean it's a good thing? From my POV; the movies work better if Yoda is telling the truth, the books work better if he wasn't.

    Just my .02.

    Oh and another thing.

    3. Ventress the Nightsister vs. Ventress the Failed Jedi: This one is difficult to judge because, honestly, the difference between the two origin is a question of "when and a how" versus "what is." At the end of the day Nightsister Ventress and Failed Jedi Ventress are the same character. They're both dual-lightsaber wielding white-skinned ladies who HATE the Jedi and Obi Wan Kenobi in particular. It doesn't matter what her origin is because these four qualities are all that really matter about her.

    Or are they?

    Ventress the Failed Jedi is a more nuanced character. Dark Horse comics went with the idea Ventress was mostly a little girl looking for a father. She found one in Count Dooku and he set her on the Jedi Knights in a misguided attempt at revenge for "abandoning" her master.

    Ventress the Nightsister is not a nuanced character. She was born on Danthomir, was probably raised into evil, and when she found a way off her homeworld--she went straight to the Sith in hopes of becoming one. She's a Separatist and she'll never be any good.

    I can't really choose between these two, actually.

    You'd think I'd go with Ventress the nuanced character but Dark Horse kind of screwed that up for me. You see...Ventress is a bad person. A really-really bad person. She animates Gungans as zombies with Sith sorcery (she did!). She threatens to murder Padme. She terrorizes and does generally very bad things with no remorse. Yet, frankly, we're supposed to be rooting for her redemption? It's all the more egregious when Obi Wan Kenobi tries to awaken the good inside her despite the fact that Ventress tortured him and (much worse) he didn't do the same for Anakin.

    So when Ventress gets away at the end of the Clone Wars comics, it feels like a massive case of evil escaping unpunished. I feel much the same way about Aurra Sing, Bossk, and Boba Fett himself. The cartoon version makes no pretensions of being a misunderstood victim and her recent betrayal by Dooku actually feels like where I think the comic SHOULD have gone. It did, arguably, at the end but we don't get to see Ventress plot her revenge.

    Really, though, my canonical ending for Ventress is Anakin killing her with power cables after she threatens Padme. I cannot think of a more singularly suicidal action in Star Wars.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012
  7. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Let's just say that there is nothing satisfying about yet another pacifist monarchy planet, and no amount of retconning will fix this mess for me. I have said it before and I will say it again, when it comes to the Clone Wars and TCW meddling, "I was happy where I was."
    GrandMasterKatarn likes this.
  8. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Yeah, there's definitely a downside to the fact that Obi-Wan's true love is essentially...Older Padme. I do think there's something to the idea that George is conscientious about glorifying warfare and fascism.

    It's why George refused to let a TIE Fighter II be made.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012
  9. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Anakin being knighted mere months after Geonosis and having a Padawan simply means nothing to me in comparison to Anakin being a Padawan for most of the war. I don't understand how we are supposed to believe in this radical timeline shift.
  10. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    That's the heart of it, I think. We should accept, sadly, a certain level of fiction exists and just acknowledge that once it was one way...now it's another.

    Or not, in your continuity.

    Edit:

    I am curious, though, why do you prefer Padawan Anakin Zeta?
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012
  11. cavalier_one Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2001
    star 4
    WotC retconned that to be an IU story that Wedge tells new recruits, which finishes with the "dead" Janson arriving as the story concludes.
  12. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I prefer Anakin being a Padawan for most of the war, because it came first and was the storyline RotS was built on. The Dark Lord Trilogy, which includes RotS, has already lost some of its nuance thanks to TCW and the radical timeline shift that is Anakin being knighted mere months after Geonosis and having a Padawan.
  13. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    It's a tough call for me because it's a case of what-ifs. The idea of Darth Vader, the most feared man in the galaxy was never actually a Jedi Knight is an idea that was always similar to MY view of Star Wars growing up as a child. That he never was able to pass the sort of test that Luke Skywalker did in ROTJ.

    Also, it helped fit my view of Obi-Wan Kenobi. I.e. that Obi-Wan wasn't a Jedi Master and failed as a teacher.
    Still, the "What if Anakin had his own apprentice?" is a cool what if. It shows he's a TERRIBLE master who is still very loving and affectionate.

    So, given the choice, I'd have to say the idea Anakin never was a Jedi Knight feels more right. The Jedi being so flawed they bestowed the mantle on such an unworthy soul as Anakin isn't really far from what we saw in the Prequels, though. The Original Trilogy Jedi seemed much wiser while the Prequel Jedi could conceivably fail to see Anakin is totally unsuitable to be a knight.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012
  14. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Basically after Ruusan the Mandos where once again starting to rise as military power and forcing surrounding systems into protection payments/alliances and hampered trade with parts of the Rim that where still part of Republic (whilst they were not). Some Mandos argued that they should just join the Republic and by default by one of its stronger members because they were not devastated as much in the Sith wars, whilst others argued that only the warriors way was the true way, to which the others countered that it was a stupid idea because they could not win a war with the Republic.

    Some 250 years after Ruusan the Republic had had enough of Mandos messing with the Rim and send a fleet and Jedi, which pretty swiftly conquered Mando space, many Mando worlds beings heavily devastated by bombardment and the region disarmed and occupied, whilst a new government was formed from the Mandos that had argued for joining Republic in the past.

    Occupation was rather unpopular and eventually a New Mandalorian faction was born from the government that did not practically care for the Republic but did not see a point in fighting it either, so they went for neutrality and political cooperation. Those few hard head warriors that still felt that they way of the warrior was the only way got exiled or disappeared into the galaxy as guns for hire, whilst the rest of society got busy rebuilding. From the wandering and exiled Mandos we eventually get the True Mandalorians and the Death Watch and you know what happened next. ;)

    PS: I think you would love the Atlas and Warfare guide :)
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Oct 22, 2012
  15. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the New Mandalorians, but they just don't work for me, and no clever retconning will ever be good enough to truly make me believe the New Mandalorians belong in the universe, along with TCW in general.
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Eh, to each their own. That's the point of the Continuity Snarl thread, to celebrate some stories just do not fit with your view of Star Wars but you like them anyway.

    Or at least elements of them.

    Edit:

    Thanks Gorefiend!
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012
  17. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    The problem is, I don't understand why the post-NJO and TCW turned out the way they did. Oh, how I wish the post-NJO was completely redone, and TCW either went with the initial premise, or never existed in the first place.
  18. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Pretty much how you describe. Someone wanted to do it differently and redid it. Some people like different things. Looking forward to your participation in discussing what you don't or do like in the future of the thread.

    Welcome aboard.

    [face_good_luck]
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012
  19. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Bounty Hunter Wars Bossk – I swear the Bounty Hunter Wars books go out of their way to ridicule each and every other character in them besides Boba Fett, but Bossk really gets the boot here. He is constantly portrayed as utterly incompetent, rash and lacking any cunning, which are all things that would make sure that he would not survive his profession for more than a few weeks. Him eating his siblings and later his father is also just plain wtf, as I really can’t imagine a common space faring society ever getting anywhere if they are meant to be this crude, especially as otherwise Trandoshans are usually portrayed as rather advanced and caring for family. Also how Zuckuss is treated in these books is worth a whole other rant by of it’s own. I personally retconed the Bounty Hunter Wars as some kind of strange drunk guys tale of what might have had happened, though granted it has some pretty cool aspects like Kud'ar Mub'at and D'harhan.
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Oct 22, 2012
  20. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Gorefiend gave a succinct summary of the "How we got here..." portion from the Warfare guide, but as far as the actual reconciliatory elements:
    The pacifist Mandalorians comprise a single faction within the larger Mandalorian culture, the New Mandalorians. Mandalore has not been turned into a Tatooine-esque desert world, but rather the large desertscape seen in TCW is just that, a large desert, and part of the larger multi-ecosystem Mandalore had been previously established to possess. Jango Fett is a Mandalorian, Prime Minister Almec is just a proud nationalist who doesn't acknowledge the warrior clans; the warrior clans still exist and Keldabe remains the capital of Mandalore, while Sundari is the capital of the New Mandalorian faction and only some of the warriors from New Mandalorian society were banished to Concordia.

    In my opinion, reconciliation is always preferable to throwing good story under the bus. And in the way Jason Fry handled things, the storyline of the show and the storyline of the EU are allowed to co-exist in a way that lets each arc reach its climax in a satisfactory way without hindering the other. Knowing that the other clans are still out there in the Keldabe region and such doesn't make me any less interested in the coming fall of Sundari, nor does the existence of the clans diminish the accomplishments of the New Mandalorian government in its quest for a peaceful evolution of the culture.
  21. TrakNar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2011
    star 5
    I was just about to mention these books, but mainly the Zuckuss rant. Unfortunately, that rant will need to wait til tomorrow night, as I'm going to bed. I need sleep so I can be well-rested and ready to rant!
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  22. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Traviss' Mandos are more of a culture than a planetary population (some of them are Togorian etc!). Kal Skirata was all Mando, (very fiercly so) but ethnically Kuati - its all down to their practice of adopting like-charactered individuals.
  23. Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2006
    star 4
    Wicket speaking Basic and befriending a shipwrecked girl mere weeks before Return of the Jedi... is some of the most delightful EU in existence. Love me my Ewoks films.

    If you're wondering, the timeline comes from Behind the Magic, which places the Ewoks films and cartoon series at 3.5 ABY. 1995's The Essential Guide to Characters details the events of the cartoon before the live-action films in Wicket's entry. So, if the entirety of the cartoon happens between 3.5 and 4 ABY, then there isn't a lot of room left to squeeze in the adventures of Noa, Teek, and the Gorax before ROTJ.

    Should that make sense? Hell no. Is it canon? Hell yes. And I love it. :D
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  24. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5


    that is sadly not correct!

    Jason's retcon attempted that indeed and solved many troubles but not all! And don't get me wrong I do love his retcons! They saved my sanity too.

    TCW still overrules book canon sadly and as such future Mandalore tales in any Dark Times set tv series might stirr new trouble by referencing TCW not the EU! As such, retcons that reduce higher canon in favor of lower canon fall short of longlivety sadly, which I too hate.

    TCW guides make sure that Mandalore WAS bombarded and a lot of it turned into a desert. while it has natural deserts and still a multiterrain ecological system, it still was partially turned to glass too.

    Keldabe is a capital, but is it THE capital? later years yes, but in TCW years it is not the politically recognised capital. Mandalore also is not a split world with factions as Republic member and others not. That'd be a split world or bad governing on the governments part.

    Also this retcon, as lovely as it is sadly does bring other problems: In case of battles, full scale invasion etc. as upcoming in Darth Maul episodes as per trailer... we do not see the warrior clans and green Mandalore regions and as such have a timeline loophole where for one, their part of the story is missing and probably not going to get filled in for a while, and where too later stories of the EU do not remember the big changes or even not be influenced at all by them as if they never happend, which also in a way is not optimal either.

    I want all inclusive retcons, not favoritism ones where one side looses. As such, Jasons retcons are spot on and heal the wound, but the scar is still visible and might burst open again in follow up battles that may or may not come.

    But since Jasons retcons are spoton, faninterpretations of them sometimes go too far I think.

    What I love is that the existence of the high tech NEW Mandos explains well why the warrior clans lived in lowtech farms and woods. Simply they were hiding and surviving, or not really hiding but surviving at the edge of Pacifist Mando society. Funny it is that it even turns the usual principle around where lush green is for the rich and the "others" dwell in deserts and the outskirts. here the warriors hold the green parts of mandalore and the official recognised and rich Mandos turned hightech to survive in the desert. The pacifists even ban their lawbreakers and old school Mandos to Concordia.. a more green and liveable place than their own world's regions they live in.

    Honestly, banning someone from a desert into paradise hardly sounds like a punishment, especially if it is known that said paradise houses spaeships and a dissident group fully armed and supplied. This feels more like the biggest prank the "supposed to be pacifist" Mandos ever played on the Republic to pretend pacifism while everybody sleeps with his armor and weapons stashed under the bed, waiting for the awakening call to come.. as it will in upcoming episodes.
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  25. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    it is no more canon since Cindel Towani is an adult during ROTJ on Coruscant helping rebel news of Palpatines death spread :p touché