Lit The Continuity Snarl Celebration thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012.

  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I'm not attempting to put you down. You have a lot of good thoughts and I'm sorry you have suffered bad feedback in other forums. It's just I'd be interested in your thoughts on other matters even if the Post-NJO and TCW period aren't your cup of tea.

    We got it and a lot of us agree. Isn't there something else to discuss, though, if you don't want to discuss this?
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 25, 2012
  2. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    It's not usually those that can bang out and go nomad at a moment's notice that end up getting caught!
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Oh do tell, please!
  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    A big snarl for me? KOTOR2.

    Virtually the entire dang thing.

    No offense to the writing.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 25, 2012
  5. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5


    There is another exchange later on where the Mandalore is drunk, just can’t find it online.

    Kotor 2 only gripe I have is the broken ending, otherwise its very well thought out and planed, especially the companions, which are a far less heroic bunch that Revans followers from #1 and that you really need to make an effort into making them good and kind of „fixing“ them.




    Pretty much, though since the days of Marvel I was always intrigued who the Slavers actually where in that regard, as we have Stormtroopers work together with them, but the majority of the look of a rough and tumble gang (well as much as the Protectors at least), so I always wondered if they where locals as well. Not like the Mandos don’t have a Slaver tradition after all.
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Oct 25, 2012
  6. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Sadly, I missed the boat on KotOR and KotORII.
  7. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
  8. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    To be fair, even in the original Clone Wars timeline AOTC wasn't the last time Dooku and Anakin fought before ROTS. They dueled briefly on Raxus Prime in the video game The Clone Wars (no relation to the modern TCW), and can also be considered to have fought in The New Droid Army, although that Dooku was either a clone or a dark side doppelganger. Of course, the first fight lasted like three seconds and Dooku wasn't even really present for the second so they sort of didn't count. Also, of course, both of those games came out before ROTS established that they hadn't met since Geonosis. Not sure what TCW's excuse is.
    Last edited by _Catherine_, Oct 25, 2012
    Esg and Zeta1127 like this.
  9. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    I'd be very curious to hear why KotOR II was such a snarl to you, Chuck. Not looking to fight or anything, just genuinely curious.
  10. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    My problems with Knights of the Old Republic 2 are something I intend to write a blog on. Basically, it's the problem of something that I felt was an excellent game (almost on par with Planescape: Torment) but an abyssmal Star Wars game. I liken the disconnect to the same one I had with the New Jedi Order only deliberate as opposed to be accidental.

    At heart, KOTOR2 is about trying to deconstruct the morality of the Jedi and the Force with Kreia. Kreia's motivations being that the Force causes a never-ending war between the Sith and the Jedi. Kreia's motivations being the destruction of the Force and the establishment of Free Will without the God equivalent. Very deep and overwhelming ideas about destiny that are completely inappropriate and misunderstanding the nature of the Force as well as free will in Star Wars.

    The fact the Exile is a figure who exists without the Force is the central idea of the game, one which never is redressed. The Exile never recovers his connection but draws it through his Force Bonds to his companions. Unfortunately, life cannot exist without the Force (one of the major problems I had with the Yuuzhan Vong and ysalamari) and vice versa. You can blind someone to the Force but I don't believe anything exists outside of the Force.

    The use of Darth Nihilus as Galactus was something I also had a major problem with along with Darth Sion as an immortal zombie. The game attempts to attribute the TRUE Sith as some sort of uber-super-duper group of EVIL Darksiders whose powers dwarf anything in the cosmos. That, bluntly, annoys me because it implies evil is more powerful than the Light. The Dark Side isn't more powerful than the Good side, it's just quicker and more seductive. Bluntly, I was annoyed by Kreia's Sith fanboyism and the game giving them powers that dwarfed Darth Sidious.

    Finally, the Jedi Purge bothers me because it diminishes the accomplishment of Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious conquered the galaxy and destroyed the Jedi Knights. Those are unprecedented things in Star Wars history and now we've got Darth Krayt, Darth Caedus, and the Sith Triumvirate all muscling in on his action. The Jedi Exile is potentially one of the most saintly characters in Star Wars but having them muscle in on LUKE'S action for rebuilding the Jedi Order annoys me almost as much.

    Luke and Sidious lose some of their legendary status with it just being done by a couple of other Jedi/Sith. So it's the awkward position of an AWESOME game that's very Un-Star Wars for me.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 26, 2012
  11. TrakNar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2011
    star 5
    I'll refrain from mentioning the Ewok-sized Gand ankle-biters. Personally, I thought they were funny, and they had an amusing waddle when hey ran.
  12. TrakNar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2011
    star 5
    I hate you too, stupid server error.
    Last edited by TrakNar, Oct 26, 2012
  13. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    guess you misunderstood KOTOR 2 then:

    You are right that there can be no life without the Force. But Kotor 2 never contradicted that!

    for one, Exile like the Vong are just in a different spectrum of the Force, not outside of it. and as one can only feel a certain spectrum.. it is as if they are not in the usual spectrum, but still in the Force and have to relearn how to use it.

    so no contradiction so far there.

    as for Kreia killing the Force... have her try, it is suicide by galactic genocide. inuniverse she was wrong, but out of universe that never was stated as fact that killing the Force is possible.

    Jedi Purge, superpowers and reducing movie uniqueness:

    well.. got a point there but star wars is like history and history often repeats itself. so I don't care about that and actually like it a lot that way.

    as for bigger evil and dark side stronger... well.. it is not, that is a fact indeed. but it appears to be, masks itself as if it is. that is the crux. and kotor blew the threat up to superevil whereas it was just a hidden sith empire. not superevil as TOR showed.

    lightsiders could use similiar stunning feats.. they just don't want to usually. don't need to if simple means are enough to win when trusting in the force guiding them. see f.e. Aing Ti teleportation and flowwalking and other stuff that lightsiders can do too but usually don't. or conjuring stuff out of thin air as witches of dathomir can do, those are lightsiders too, not just darksiders.
    Last edited by CeiranHarmony, Oct 26, 2012
  14. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

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    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    Also on the Jedi purge of KOTOR II, as far as I know (haven't played the game) this purge is nowhere near as bad as Palpatine's purge. These Sith killed a lot of Jedi and scattered the Order, but it got back together relatively quickly and recovered just the same. Palpatine destroyed the Order itself. Didn't matter that he also killed a lot of Jedi, he effectively erased them from society and history, and even when Luke created the New Jedi Order he never really brought the Order back to its peak. Palpatine erased many Jedi records and techniques, so for a long time Luke had to build his order off of bits and pieces of scant information, with some minor help from Purge survivors or their children, like Vima and Kam. He didn't obtain the Great Holocron or the Jedi Path until much later in his tenure as Jedi Grand Master. Yet, the Jedi who survived Kreia's schemes still had that repository of knowledge and did not have to build up from scratch, exactly.
  15. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    the purge was a ruse to boot, planned by the Jedi to lure the Sith out... they disbanded and went to hiding mostly after few deaths. not even a true purge at all. merely Kreia purging the Jedi Masters of the old Council... less so the rest of the order
  16. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Yeah. Plus, any "damage" to the Order can't be accredited to one individual super awesome Sith Lord like Order 66 can to Palpatine, as the Post-KOTOR2 galaxy was the way it was because of fifty years of repeated Sith Wars, purges and pogroms led by Kun, Revan, Mandalore, Hazen, Kreia, Nihilus... the list goes on. Like the later New Sith Wars, the Old Sith Wars achieved a similar goal of portraying an age of war and feudal chaos that was very different to the time of peace and prosperity that Palpatine shattered.

    In the end, Nihilus did... what was it... eat like only 300 Jedi on Katarr? Then, like you say, in KOTOR2 we learn there were still dozens of Lost Jedi around the galaxy -- and presumably many, many more than just the ones the Exile happened to come across during the game. (Not like Bastila was likely to be a one-off.)
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Oct 26, 2012
  17. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    I was under the impression that the Exile was the last Jedi left by the end of the game. I suppose I must have missed something. . .?
  18. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Well you train like six new Jedi during the course of the game, plus Bastila, Revan, that one Twi'lek Jedi historian from the first game, probably a few others I can't think of.
  19. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    There's also the possibility that Zayne, Lucien, and that hidden enclave that Lucien had at the end of Vindication are still around.
  20. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Unfortunately, if we do that we also have to acknowledge the huge number of survivors Luke encountered.

    As for the Force Wounds just being an issue of a "Different Spectrum" that was never brought up in the actual game. It would have made the thing more palatable.

    :D

    Just because I feel the game's theme isn't very Star Warsy doesn't mean I didn't like it.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 26, 2012
  21. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Jul 19, 1999
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  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    This is just a personal preference but I am a long-time comic book fan and I am used to multiple universes existing simultaneously in my head. For the sake of my sanity, I tend to do it like this:

    Lucasverse (A.K.A GFFA-A): A universe consisting of the Star Wars sexology, The Clone Wars TV show, the Ewok movies, the Ewok and Droid cartoons, Shadows of the Empire, and (of all things) the Force Unleashed.

    Bantamverse (A.K.A. GFFA-B): Everything more or less up to Visions of the Future. I include the Marvel and Dark Horse Clone Wars comics here.

    The NJOverse (A.K.A GFFA-C): An alternate universe from the Bantamverse despite incorporating the events from it here. This universe includes Legacy of the Force, Fate of the Jedi, and Legacy.

    Bizarre as this may sound, the continuity flows a lot better in these particular volumes.

    Frankly, I'm unsure where the events of the video games take place or fit best, continuity wise.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 26, 2012
  23. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5


    Star Wars sexology... what a name.. could be a thread title I might use one day :p

    I am sure you meant a hexalogy ;)
  24. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    PS: your A B C split does not work since the NJOverse references Prequel sources like Rogue Planet and others and is tied to them too.. same with Lost Tribe being all over the timeline. So if NJOverse is DelReyverse.. you got the EU split in half (ignoring comics and other publishers for now) across the entire timeline instead of just NJO onwards vs. EU before that. another problem would even be that sourcebooks and guides mix A B and C instead of keeping them separate. so that does not work as you planned.
  25. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Eh, I'm speaking Alderaanian. They call it that.

    *waves hand*

    The NJO-verse includes all the events of the Bantamverse AS WELL as PARTS of the Lucasverse. It's just kind of a mess because of it.

    In the Lucasverse, Luke never gets married and probably adopts a bunch of kids because he's an EXPY of George Lucas. Galen Marek and Luke also probably found the NJO together.

    It's interesting in this scenario how themes start to develop as well. Lucasverse is more magical and surreal, Bantamverse is more grounded and military, while NJOverse is Darker and Crueler.