Lit The Continuity Snarl Celebration thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012.

  1. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Got way behind, unfortunately, but definitely want to respond to this.

    I can certainly understand your reasons for not liking KOTOR II's place in the Star Wars galaxy, but I think those are the things that I love about it. I don't have the emotional attachment to Star Wars that many posters here do: I don't mind things being subverted or changed, as long as I enjoy the outcome. To this day, I can only scratch my head at some of the backlash to Traitor, with old fans of the movies claiming it betrays their vision of Star Wars by eschewing a black and white light side/dark side view of things, especially when that philosophy was presented as merely an alternative, rather than a replacement for the old.

    Nah, the reason I like Star Wars is that it's so very large, so impossible to fully comprehend. Yeah, if you're feeling cynical, you could make the argument that it's all the same story told over and over, with settings and characters changed. But those arc words, "truth depends heavily on the point of view" (or something to that effect) fits Star Wars perfectly. Certain things are constant, of course. That's what creates a compelling and believable universe one wants to spend large amount of time exploring. But at the same time, it's a very, very large galaxy, and what is absolute law for one story may not be so for the next.

    The most appealing thing about KOTOR II, for me, is of course the writing. And the thing I love about the writing is that it's so willing to turn Star Wars lore on its head, while still staying true to the overall spirit of the larger universe (more on this later). When Chris Avellone said his team read the entire EU to make sure they would not be telling a story at all similar to anything that had been done before... well, after playing KOTOR II, I believe them. Though frankly, I think they could have skipped the EU reading and have been reasonably confident they were doing something new, but it was a great gesture, and one that undoubtedly helped with minor details.

    But like I said, I do feel KOTOR II stays true to the universe, even if it subverts it a bit. For example, I never got the impression that the Exile was a being who lived without the Force. The Force is, after all, always presented as an omniscient, well, force, one that touches everything, one that has no inherit bias even as it has a will, one that is deeply connected to all living things. That's the Jedi Exile to the letter. When she willingly disconnected herself from the Force, I don't believe she began to live without it; rather, she began to live without it in the way Han Solo does, or any other non Force sensitive being. She's a wound in the Force the way an ysalamiri is. It's her connection to the Force that specifically allows her to wound it. She was able to step back from it, and by doing so, avoid following Revan into the dark side, and saved the galaxy rather than help conquer it. That, of course, is merely my interpretation, but I believe by wounding the Force, she's as close to it as someone like Revan is, and arguably more so than the Jedi masters who attempted to sever her.

    I acknowledge your point on Nihilus. However, I tend to view him less as a Sith Lord, and more an utterly twisted perversion of the Dark side, an avatar for it. In truth, one of my favorite things about KOTOR II is how utterly terrifying it makes the Sith Lords. Darth Sion, Nihilus and Traya are the greatest embodiments of the evil nature of the dark side since Vader and Sidious, in my opinion. Sidious represents the Sith's desperate clinging to life, an immortality that leaves them in a state where most would envy death; Nihilus represents the inhumane hunger for power, though with Nihilus it's meaningless, used to sustain an absolute monster; and Traya represents the arrogance of the Sith, the desire to know more than the Jedi. Nihilus appears incredibly powerful, but we know he has limits; he cannot kill the Exile, obviously, and he was subservient to Kreia. His greatest accomplishment was draining the life of Katarr, and I believe I remember it mentioning that his strength was amplified by several times, due to the strong presence of the Force on that world. Even so, Sidious has proven himself fully capable of destroying worlds, so I can't agree that Sidious, or any of the Sith in the game, dwarf him.

    It should be noted that Sion, Nihilus, and Traya are not truly of the "New Sith"; that's the Sith we see in TOR. For good or for ill, we find out first hand that heresay is often more impressive than reality. The True Sith are impressive in numbers, but they are not stronger than the light. I believe that the Exile proves this Kreia as she dies, as she begins to truly see her student for what she is.

    I also can't entirely agree that Kreia is a Sith "fanboy", mostly because she seems to have as much disdain for the Sith as the Jedi, and uses them merely as a means to an end. Despite her "Darth" moniker, I'd readily classify her as a "gray".

    Can't argue with the logic on the Jedi purge. It doesn't bother me that much, since it's such a vast and long lived galaxy, and one that happened thousands of years before the movies. It was also, ultimately, a much less successful purge, as I believe several hundred Jedi survived, and in less than 300 years, the Jedi order was as strong as it had ever been, maybe stronger. Plus, there's something very satisfying about having your crew go on to reestablish the order. Perhaps I'm merely justifying, but I view the "First Purge" as not really a purge, but a scattering, a warning for the Jedi to stay out of sight. Many Jedi die, including the council, but they're still very much alive. Palpatine's purge is utter hopelessness for twenty years. Can't comment on Legacy, as I have not read it, but it doesn't have the excuse of taking place to long after Palpatine's purge.

    But y'know, your mileage may vary on all of this.
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  2. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    The title of this thread is hilarious to me all of a sudden.
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  3. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    It was the Harbinger of our destiny.
  4. Valin__Kenobi Author: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Praji

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    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
  5. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Which was paired up with Omen, if memory serves!
  6. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Harbinger, eh?

    [IMG]

    ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL
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  7. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    My pet snarl has always been rather insubstantial and will most likely become even more so considering the changes the fandom is facing, but I'll give my two creds anyway. As all of you who have been viewing the "Agents of the Empire: Hard Targets 1" or "Alderaanian Ascendancy through the ages" threads here at lit boards may have guessed already, I'm talking about the Alderaan Ascendancy Contention.

    First introduced in Zahn's Dark Force Rising as a part of Jorus C'baoth's backstory, the AAC centered around the question of who was to become the next Viceroy of Alderaan (at some point in the pre-Imperial era). The Alderaanians were unable to settle the matter themselves despite having taken three separate votes, and a Republic mediation team led by C'baoth was called to help. They then ruled in favor of the Organa family. Case closed. Pretty straightforward, right?

    Well, it isn't. The earliest sources that reference the AAC (DFR Sourcebook et al.) do a decent job in presenting the event in a manner consistent with the novel, but since then the descriptions have been all over the place. I won't go into all of the details, but here are the biggest continuity hiccups relating to the event:

    1. Timeline. The sources have given not one or two but four different dates for the AAC throughout the years: 112 pre-Empire (original date; would work out to 89 BBY), 70 BBY (The Official Star Wars Fact File), 32 BBY (Darth Plagueis) and 28 BBY (Agent of the Empire: Hard Targets 1). I suspect this is largely because of C'baoth's screwy timeline, which had to be retconned when the prequel trilogy made it clear that Palpatine's chancellorship and the Clone Wars took place much later than Zahn originally thought.
    2. The new Viceroy. DFR says Bail Organa's father was the new Viceroy chosen as the result of the AAC. This has been pretty much ignored by the later sources, which identify the new Viceroy as Bail himself, if they even mention the new Viceroy at all.
    3. The manner of choosing the Viceroy. DFR doesn't say much about how exactly the Viceroy is chosen on Alderaan, but later sources have stated that the position is both elective and hereditary.
    4. The role of the Viceroy. Viceroy is supposed to be the leader or Alderaan, more or less. Some post-ROTS sources, on the other hand, claim that Bail's wife Breha is the ruling monarch of Alderaan and outranks his husband. Why make such a big fuss about choosing the new Viceroy and "the proper line of ascent" to one if s/he (yes, apparently the Viceroy can also be a woman) isn't the one running the place in the end?

    Not so simple after all, eh? [face_sigh]

    Do I feel the urge to head-desk if I think about it too long? Yes. Do I still find the subject strangely fascinating? By the Emperor's black bones, YES.
  8. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    I've just come upon a sort-of snarl...

    Jaden Korr - enrolled in Jedi Academy 14 ABY at start of Disciples of Ragnos affair - Knighted after the Vjun Mission, later that year.

    Said to have been born circa 1 ABY and to have been 41` at the time of Crosscurrent/Riptide (the Wook).

    So, a 14 year-old Knight? How likely is that?
  9. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    [IMG]

    Ask her.

    For whatever reason, I thought I had picked up somewhere that Jaden Korr was 16 in JA. I could buy that, personally.
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  10. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    This is more or less what happened with Eelysa as well. She was running dangerous undercover missions (the kind you would not task a mere apprentice with) for the New Jedi Order while still in her teens and became a Jedi Master before the age of 24.
    Last edited by Tinwe, Nov 2, 2012
  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    According to Leia, Alderaan is also a democracy with the monarchy being a purely ceremonial affair.

    However, if the Viceroy is actually the rulership of the planet and an ELECTED position, that might actually make more sense why people are more upset. You could squeeze it into a jigsaw like position with Alderaan being something like the Chiss Ascendency with the various Houses trading the leadership of the government.

    But yes, Bail Organa is the Senator of Alderaan and Viceroy and married to the monarch.

    Edit:

    So, crazy theory time.

    Alderaan works something like the Hapsburg Empire where there's something of a choice over which house will hold the position of Viceroy that is the legal rulership of the planet. Alderaan is a democracy but perhaps a non-traditional democracy with candidates for leadership of the planet coming from the Royal Houses. The Houses may supplant political parties in this respect, the citizens of Alderaan choosing which they think is most qualified to lead.

    Bail Organa (replacing his father) and head of the Organa Household has married the monarch of the planet. He's a popular leader but not so popular that the democracy isn't deadlocked against him and repeatedly so (maybe House Thul is opposing them for symetry's value). Joruus C'boath arbitrates the matter.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Nov 2, 2012
  12. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    I actually like your theory a lot. It would explain a few things about Alderaan's seemingly messed-up political system; the big question for me has always been why all of the important political roles (viceroy, senator etc.) seem to go to the noble-born, if Alderaan indeed is supposed to be a, you know, democracy. (The noble families would of course have more money to fund election campaigns and such and thus have more visibility than your average Joe or Jane, but still.) Even with all the huge things coming the fandom's way, I'm hoping we'll get a closer look into Alderaan's politics in the future – I would be quite happy to read a novel that focuses on nothing else, but I would probably be in the minority. :p
  13. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    The answer is easy - everyone on Alderaan is a noble.

    It started as the private retreat of some nobles from other planets and they just ended up living there full time. :p


    ....Though, now that I mention it, I wonder if the Republic actually has official noble titles it gives out itself or if they just recognize the titles given out by member planets. Certainly many Republic/Imperial naval families (and I think some bureaucratic and Senate Guard families) were considered aristocrats but didn't have any noble titles. So something like the unofficial nobility of the American South then?
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  14. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Count Dooku?
  15. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    I assumed Alderaan was a constitutional monarchy like Naboo, Serenno, Dac, Hapes, or the Empire under Fel.

    But in this case the Houses jockey to select the Viceroy, who acts as the Prime Minister?
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Yeah, if we're going to assume all previous references are canon the Houses jockeying to select Viceroy who acts as Prime Minister seems like the best option. As for why the Old Republic has so many monarchies, I think the general assumption is that Coruscant was an elitist society and they just exported that elitism to its colony worlds.

    Edit:

    Another theory, given we've seen a bunch of entries on commoners working for nobility but acting as part of House Organa, it could be the Houses function by bringing in the best and brightest of Alderaan into their ranks. This would forego most of the problems relating to monarchies in the real world.

    The only problem is it would mean Alderaan is a limited democracy. I.e. that only certain groups of people would be able to be Viceroy (i.e. members of a noble house) and the Viceroy would be selected by the House you elect not the public at large.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Nov 4, 2012
  17. Tinwe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    Why of course, that is the most logical explanation! :D

    Dooku was a Count by birthright, if that's what you were wondering. House Dooku was one of the Great Houses of Serenno, with the head of the family bearing the title of Count of Serenno. When Dooku left the Jedi Order, he reclaimed this title and wealth.

    This is a nice theory as well. As for the problematic part: I get the feeling that Alderaan is always going to end up a limited democracy, no matter what angle one takes when figuring out its political system...
    MercenaryAce likes this.
  18. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    star 7
    Incidentally, are we to assume that Dooku abandoned his first name like Palpatine?
  19. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    That's assuming he has a first name. If he was the first son of the noble house, "Dooku of House Dooku" wouldn't be that abnormal.
  20. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    This is why Luceno's next book should be Darth Tyranus. Then we'd know one way or another.
  21. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    star 7
    His relatives have first names, though.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    My baloney has a first name.
  23. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    That is one of those planetary titles actually.

    It could be that anyone is technically allowed to run, but the wealth and good reputation of the noble families means members of those families are most likely to win.

    Maybe the Alderaan Ascendancy Crisis was a very vigorous voting campaign and run off election?

    I have to admit the idea of the noble houses taking the roles of political parties in a British style parliamentary system is pretty interesting as well....

    Glad you liked it!

    And what is it its first name?
  24. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    It would be if TCW wasn't ruining everything in sight.
  25. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    ....we get it.

    Really.

    [face_coffee]

    Have a cup of hot chocolate.
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