Lit The Continuity Snarl Celebration thread

The problem is, the New Mandalorians are a footnote that means nothing to me. There is no potential for anything, no matter how good it is, that acts like everything that came before it doesn't exist.

 

I'm happy with side-by-side for as long as the pacifist faction lasts - it gives extra depth and might shine additional light on both sides thinking and belief systems; from each other's perspectives.

 

In which case, would you rather continuity serve your interests or the interests of a larger fanbase? Yes, they mean nothing to you but to the younger fans of our shared hobby, the New Mandalorians DO mean something. Just like Ahsoka Tano means something and Rex. The question is are we, as older fans, willing to make room for these younger fans or are we going to continue to deride and dismiss their elements just because they contradict our own preferred timeline?

There's a shortpacked comic strip that reflects the issue of generation gaps in fanbases.

http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2012-09-28-interview.png

Now replace Starfire from Teen Titans with Ahsoka in that strip.

In ten years, are WE going to be like this to teenagers who grew up with the New Mandalorians and Ahsoka? If so, that's really karking sad to me.

 

The problem is, I believe continuity can server both, but TCW is the antithesis of continuity. How can people like me seriously believe the premise of TCW, Anakin being knighted mere months after Geonosis and having a Padawan, can ever mesh with Anakin being knighted two and a half years after Geonosis, with those two and a half years suddenly fitting into mere months and/or being reshuffled?

 

Honestly, I would love some legitimate contrast and head-butting between the factions. I've said before that once the pacifists were established to be the New Mandalorian faction instead of encompassing all the Mandalorians, I almost immediately came to peace with them. However, the show doesn't want any such diversity, with a black and white narrative that labels the pacifists as saints and the warriors confined to being Death Watch terrorists.

When you look at the New Mandalorians in the scope of larger Mando-canon, though, you can see just how severely flawed they are. They've confined themselves to the desert, building their technological bio-cubes to live in while cutting themselves off from the natural world. When they begin to experience food shortages as a result of the Republic cutting off trade routes, rather than ask their farming neighbors for help, they're too proud and the people suffer for it, turning instead to the black market and allowing the Moogans to harm their children. Sundari is plagued by Death Watch attacks, first terrorist in nature, and now an open assault in Season 5. If they went to the clans seeking help, how many would rally to fight off the Death Watch? There's a veritable army of soldiers with a pre-existing hate for the Death Watch no more than a hemisphere away, but the New Mandalorians would rather attempt to stand on their own and their people again suffer for it.

Moving forward, I think it would be really cool to see the evolution of New Mandalorian philosophy when they've been deprived of their isolationist power base in Sundari. To have them forced to re-evaluate their positions as they walk among the clans they'd scorned. By this point in time, the Mandalorians have largely become a soldier society, rather than a warrior one, and farmers, craftsmen, and other "domestic" occupations are as well-regarded as those who choose to do mercenary work. Having the New Mandalorians reintegrate into larger Mandalorian society while attempting to keep to their pacifist ideals would be an intriguing concept, if you ask me. Maybe even a connection between their own beliefs and the later kadikla movement.

You have a point here, and I do completely agree. But canon is canon, and Jason has created a workable fix. For now. Now is all we have, though, because there's no telling if the live action series will ever truly take off, or what may come in the future. It's the now that I'm content with, and do my best not to worry about what the future may or may not hold. The Stover Imperial Commando 2 novel rumor gives me hope in that regard, that everything can continue to co-exist.

This is one of the reasons I so enjoy Jason Fry's retcons. I understand that what I enjoy may not be what others do, and vice versa. The ability to compromise and incorporate all aspects in a way that allows for fans of new and old sources alike to continue to get what they personally enjoy is far more preferable than either side being told that their preference is being overhauled and they'll just have to deal with it.

 

I think most of us accept that it's a fictional universe that, barring quantum physics, exists at the whims of editors. At the end of the day, it's not really a big deal and getting frustrated over it is probably a waste of fan's time. Yeah, continuity is great but the Snarl thread sadly is built on the premise that some things are just broken and we should collectively move on.

In the case of your example, no, I don't like it but this is hardly the first time continuity has been broken and it won't be the last so it's best to just take the stories as what they are. Stories. Things told with the same character which don't necessarily have any link to the larger continuity.

In short, the ultimate tragic truth of Star Wars:

EVERYTHING is Infinities.

Edit:

Seriously, though, we get it. Clone Wars isn't a good fit for past continuity. Old news, not going to change in the future and in twenty years, may get replaced by something else.

 

Basically rewriting the Clone Wars is a little bit more serious than any other continuity snarl we have ever seen. I know continuity hasn't been perfect, but by the time the PT ended, it seems like they had it figured out, until TCW showed up. I simply see no reason for TCW to exist its present form.

 

In short, you'd prefer they not exist even if they're important to other fans? I understand. In which case, we have nothing further to talk about.

Thank you.

 

I don't understand why TCW exists in its present form, and why Star Wars suddenly became like Star Trek were on screen is the only thing that matters.

 

True, I think it's George Lucas trying to lay his foot down regarding the glorification of (his perception of) evil. George's treatment of Anakin Skywalker has, at least on some of his commentary, been that while the story is ABOUT HIM - he's also a selfish, whining, egotistical brat. Subtlety is not his strong suit. I think there's something intriguing about George's belief that the Mandalorians as "Proud Warrior Race Guys" needed to be Deconstructed (See TV tropes).
However, while I think television for children is better handled George Lucas' way, more nuance could definitely be done in books.

By contrast, they're also the NON-ISOLATIONIST Mandalorians who have chosen to peacefully integrate into the rest of the galaxy. They're the people who are no longer living like crazy militiamen in RL spouting conspiracy theories about the Jedi Knights and the EVIL Republic. Up until the time of Palpatine and the Clone Wars, pacifism and demilitarization worked for them. In an interesting way, you could draw comparisons between Post-Imperial Japan and the New Mandalorians. Possibly even Post-Shogunate Japan.

"We're over the whole samurai thing, turn in your swords."
"NEVER!"

But yes, as a great philosopher once said, "Those who set down their weapons invite attack." The Mandalorians after the Clone Wars were repaid for their pacifism with murder, enslavement, and treachery.

 

That's always been the case. See: Owen Lars being Obi-Wan's brother, Boba Fett's backstory pre-AotC...

 

Oh, so the Clone Wars multimedia project is just a footnote that didn't tell a lot of the story of the Clone Wars?

 

Courtship is the worst for this. Han happens to win the deed to a planet that also happens to be the planet where Luke is going to search for Force-users that also happens to be the base of operations of the Imperial Warlord that Han's been hunting for the past few months.

And nobody say "The Force brought them all together!" That's a lazy justification.

Agreed. The thing is, too, that it would actually be pretty easy to explain --- Palpatine spends ten years as Chancellor diminishing the powers of the corporations. It placates citizens of the Outer Rim worried about another Naboo, but it also annoys systems that have come to rely on the corporations and leads them to secede. It also causes the Clone Wars because he wants to cause the Clone Wars. ... Has there really never been an explanation for this one? Did The Approaching Storm say anything about it? Or is the need for a Luceno AOTC-lead-in all the more desperate?

Edit: How much do we actually know about the reasons behind the Separatist Crisis? Honor and Duty gave us the Financial Reform Act as one of its catalysts, but the fact that it failed to reach a vote, essentially allowing corruption to remain unchecked, would have been beneficial rather than detrimental to the megacorporations. Have we ever gotten anything more than a vague "The Republic is too corrupt; time to secede!" explanation?

 

All right, I had some sleep, drank coffee, worked on a project, ate dinner, drank Gatorade, and I may make some more coffee. Let's get this Zuckuss rant underway!

Ah, The Bounty Hunter Wars... The author's love letter to Boba Fett, at the cost of the dignity of two seasoned hunters. Bossk came out as an idiot, who won't even stop to think of something else besides his trusty Plan A: "Kill him." Yet, he retained enough dignity in those books so that he can still lord it over Zuckuss. Even 4-LOM was lording it over him in the third book!

Now onto the main rant: Zuckuss. He really got the short end of this stick with this one. His characterization was screwed up so badly that it required two diagnoses of severe mental illness just to fix it! He was portrayed as cowardly, despite his pre-established history as a findsman, and pre-Of Possible Futures Galaxy Guide 3 describing him as a ruthless hunter with exorbitant fees and more than a few "accidental" kills to his name. His proper mannerisms and third-person style of speech were also outright ignored, and Zuckuss came across as an adolescent dork who apparently run away from home just to prove himself. He retained some by-the-book manner, but it was smothered by cowardice, as he was more apt to hide or run than fight. Also, it seemed to me that the author also forgot that Zuckuss possessed an exoskeleton, as he was described as having ribs ("Zuckuss's own ribs twinged in painful sympathy as he recognized [Cradossk's trophy bones]"), and any nicks and cuts seemed to bleed a bit too easily for someone with a source-described "durable carapace".

Zuckuss's characterization progressed slightly as the books went on, and it was only in the third book, the first chapter (the only chapter that Zuckuss had an active role, rather than a passing mention) where anything from OPF was mentioned, as if the author had just now received the source material. Yet, his first-person speech remained. And the trait carried over into the Shadows of the Empire comic. Granted, Zuckuss's mannerisms were a bit closer to his OPF characterization, but he was still acting out-of-character. Subsequent comic appearances still have him dropping pronouns like they're going out of style, but I will give Unerdworld: The Yavin Vassilika credit: His overall characterization was possibly the closest to OPF that I have seen.

Though, I will not fault the mentally ill retcon. To be honest, the diagnoses of schizophrenia and dissociative-identity disorder have added new layers to Zuckuss. Sources pinpointed the onset of the conditions to around the time when he had left Gand. That said, Zuckuss had been living and working with severe mental illnesses for a very long time, since before the start of his career. For him to reach such heights of success and notoriety while dealing with the symptoms of schizophrenia and having his personalities switch around, I have to give him a lot of credit. Mental illness is not an easy thing to live with, particularly if it is un-managed. For him to last until he was finally imprisoned and diagnosed says a lot about him. He is a strong little Gand with a lot of fight in him.

 

In the case of Luke, I'll grant "the Force" as a motivating influence.

As far as Han goes - well, it's rather subtle, but the Essential Guide to Warfare hinted very strongly that Han got played by the Drackmarians - a race that had a grudge against Zsinj and by an amazing coincidence, had the NR commander who had thought he had beaten Zsinj "win" a planet from them (that they didn't really own, if you noticed) that just happened to be where Zsinj had his hidden shipyard repairing Iron Fist.

 

You know, I never thought about why the Drackmerians gave them that planet.

 

In B4 "Star Wars: Dooku"

 

They do not even have to wait for the Clone Wars to end for that to happen, as the Death Watch is already doing that to its “own” people during and before the Clone Wars and the old Mandos where also rather fond of it.

Though I am rather curious how the numbers would actually play out- I mean Mandalore has some 4 Million people living on it, you can fit all of those in one of those cube cities alone (of which there are several) so there might not be more than a few hundred or thousand out in the woods somewhere, which would kind of make sense if you consider how Death Watch seems to be far less than a hundred people and Spar could only get some 200 for his protectors and even their he had to start digging deep.

 

Numbers in Star Wars are a snarl of their own.

I go with this, personally, "There's as many as needed for a story."

 

I so want to have the reintegration portrayed in books! QFT

 

here comes my snarl... and yes, I blame Zahn for it despite loving his work!

In the Thrawn trilogy...

Leia "FIRST" visits Kashyyyk and is surprised that Chewies friend can speak basic. She thinks Chewie is the odd one out but learns his friend is.To boot she is first introduced to Chewies family there.

now, bear with me... as a galactic Senator Leia should KNOW about Wookiees and Kashyyyk since she

1. spent a long time there in The Force Unleashed
2. visited with Han and Chewie for Life Day and singing lessons in the HOLLIDAY SPECIAL where she already met his family!!!
3. Wookiees lived on Alderaan too, well some did if art is any indication.
4. and they never invited Chewies family to her wedding to Han? OUCH!!!!!

 

George Lucas considers the Holiday Special a continuity Snarl.

But yes, a mild Zahn one, Pellaeon remembering fighting insane clones.

It'd be interesting if they ever did something like that.

 

sure they did, just have Pellaeon side with a fleeing Jedi against the clones until he kill the clones, he hides the Jedi and returns playing innocent survivor

 

Well, they did have the Republic fighting the clones of Bok in the Old Republic comic book series.

Also, you could see Palpatine's Spaarti clones getting grown a LITTLE too fast.