Lit The Continuity Snarl Celebration thread

Yeah, according to Stover, Bail is a big Pro-Palpatine supporter and THAT'S why he's spared.

 

sure he is... so why does anybody at all support Bail then... why can all smell he isn't as pro-Palpatine as he says to Palpatine but the Emperor believes the bad excuse?

well there still is old obscure canon of Bail as minister of finance in the Empire... they gave a pacifist control over expenses for arming the Empire after he disarmed his own homeworld.

funny that it looks to Imperial eyes like a "Bail Organa's centralise the military campaign" by disarming all worlds in favor of the Empire arming itself for all of them.

 

Even if the intermarriages were pre-Ruusan, wouldn't there still be an increased midi-chlorian count within the general population? Post-Ruusan any individuals that showed sufficient strength in the Force would, of course, have been trained and educated at the Jedi Temple, but that still would have left non-manifesting (but likely-to-produce-Force-Sensitive-offspring) individuals on-planet.

 

The planetary population was given as 4 million Pre-Vong - that's only twice the population of 1939 Uraguay (if Battle of the River Plate can be believed). Plenty of room for all, IMHO.

 

That's not what he's referring to, though. In Dark Lords of the Sith, Naga is described as a magician of the Sith species on the run from the Dark Jedi/Dark Lords who took over his planet. Which was entirely thrown under a bus and switched around so he's a pure(ish) human of Dark Jedi descent and a Dark Lord of the Sith himself in GAotS.

This particular sniggle was solved, I think, when we learnt that several planets' worth of exiled Tapani humans were integrated into the Sith Empire. It stands to reason that once the Sith Lords started inbreeding with them, the idea that looking more human corresponded to a more prestigious line of descent from the Dark Jedi exiles fell by the wayside. Indeed, having some Sith features might begin to be a badge of honour, as it would become a surer sign you were descended from the founding fathers who had been forced to interbreed to some extent... rather than a guy who had a Tapani for a mother or father. Or, worse, whose first Force using ancestor was of Tapani stock! Quelle horreur !

Still, I don't think there's really been any official word on the matter. That's just the handwave that makes sense to me.

 

NEVER NEVER NEVER

as much fun as it would be to keep Jacen a hero and have a clone be the evil one... it would not work!

the galaxy would hate Jacen.. he'd suffer Kyp Durron/Tahiri style repercussions because of what his clone did. and we need a good reason where he was and all that. but that is not the main reason I hate this idea... I mean, all that could be done and ok, LOTF/FOTJ emotions and all still would be real even if fake Jacen was there and not real one, but...

MAIN POINT WHY THIS NEVER WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA:

Tenel Ka and Allana!!!!!!

She'd have slept with the lone and Allana would be the clone's kid, not Jacens then! He'd have to accept that... it would disturb Tenel Ka's life even more and probably ruin their lovelife entirely.

So for this single reason alone I never want to see LOTF and FOTJ undone by a clone Jacen.

and even if Jacen fans get their Jacen back, they loose their favourite shipping: Jacen/Tenel Ka and it would steal Allana's legacy since she no longer is of true lineage with Skysolos but only via clone.

so NOPE NEVER NO GO

 

And in the Lost Tribe collected stories, Sadow is recognisably Sith in appearance, much to the horror of the castaways' descendants...

 

And it doesn't already?

Frozen in Carbonite? The Force seems neutralised by that too, judging by the lack of effect Abeloth's first "death" had on Corran's children.

Clones are exact copies (genetically, at any rate) so the lineage issue would be exactly the same as if Jacen had had an identical twin brother, and a terrible mistake had been made!

And if Tenel Ka had been duped by a clone that sincerely believed he was Jacen (and he didn't start going bad until LotF) then their relationship probably wouldn't suffer - not if it's as strong as has been suggested; it didn't collapse after the loss of her arm!

 

Your kinda making up your own story with this, while skipping out on a lot of canonical information that should otherwise be included(things that the retcon leaves intact).

 

I am not saying their relationship might not survive this big hit against it.. just that such a hit would be difficult and as much a blow against these characters as it would be to have him go evil and be killed off.

also it needs lots of explanation and repercussion stories to deal with all catching up and that and I doubt the EU would ever do such a thing.

 

How so? It is mentioned numerous times that there are only a few/ none left and those that are around don't care about "the old values".

 

The hundreds of Mandalorian warriors post ROTJ, 600 of which were on the Empire's payroll as of prior to Mindor iirc.
LOTF gives Mandalorian population totals at 2 million, with another two million expected to heed the Mandalore's call. Having a group grow from a few hundred to a few million in 40 years is amazing population growth. They lost 1.5 million people during the Vong war, an estimated third of the total population numbers.
Keldabe itself is presented as larger center(though certain not as large as Sundari) with Mandal Motors as a prominate corporation based there producing transports/fighters for the Death Watch. Having Keldabe house that corporation, selling arms to both sides of the war and the like suggests it was a generally known location.
Lastly the True Mandalorians and the Death Watch have vastly differing views of the universe and shouldn't be made to co-exist as if they are one and the same. Ultimatly the Death Watch need to be defeated and vanish to Endor while Spar needs to retake Mandalore with the True Mandalorians.

As I first said, logic doesn't work well with this. Its difficult to go from Marvel til now without skipping out every single bit of new EU Mandalorian canon written since 2004 or so. There can certainly be wiggle room with numbers based around who Spar's Supercommando's are, and how many they are - past that its pretty muddled.

 

Mindor is a wobbly source at the best of days especially as it is an in universe dramatic retelling and other sources actually state that it was the Mando Protectors that fought at Mindor and not free Mercs. Though since you mention Mindor those Mandos also don’t care that “the Mandalore commands!” them to give up fighting for the Empire but just change sides because the local Imperial commander so easily tricked them into a suicide mission, which Lando actually has to point out to them.

Of which how many will really be warriors? Even if they went for forced retraining of the whole population a fraction will be to young, some to old, many just common people. Plus anyone actually being alive on Mandalore during it is one of those "hü?!" things Traviss pulled out from nowhere as normal modus operandi for Vong is to just seed/ sterilize worlds that resist them too much, so the whole planet should be cover with fun people eating Vong spores and creatures, unless of course it really is mostly desert where nothing can grow anyway.

How many did show up? Bobas Protectors mentioned are also just a few hundred people.

Hell even if, the whole Mando Sector must have Billions of people, that from the look of it clearly don't care.

The Clone wars population will also be ~ 4 Million and just like than not everyone living on the whole planet will be a warrior - during the Clone Wars the majority looks to actually be the opposite. Sure later most will be Slaves of the Empire and after that they might really go more for military retraining, but not everyone will just go along.

How big can it be on a planet of 4 Million people most of them supposedly obsessed with living in the woods and handcrafting armor on an anvil?

What gives you the idea they are? The True ones got killed off, Death Watch apparently just had more survivors than Jango had hoped (or they just recruit anyone they can get to restock numbers) and those later apparently get beat into submission by Spar so he can scrap together a might army of some 200 Police Officers and Ex Death Watch.

Funny enough if you just ignore the Traviss stuff Marvel and Open Season actually still works better with TCW, but that hover train sadly departed long ago.

 

it is interesting to notice that Death Watch lives on the moon Concordia whereas the survivors of True Mandos live on Mandalore itself in the greener areas and woods around Keldabe. smells of Pacifist mandos liking true mandos more than Death Watch... turning a blind eye whereas death watch gets exiled to the moon.

 

The bits Luke objects to at the end of Mindor- vibroshields, a much bigger fight with Kar Vastor, and so on, aren't in the book.

Implying that Nick Rostu's "holofilm" version is not what we're actually reading.

 

It'd depend on how they wrote it. It might go like this:

"That means Allana is...isn't..."
"She is."
"But..."
"My clone, my doppleganger, loved you and loved Allana because he had my memories. That, if nothing else, is something we shared."

Something that would allow fans to really really-like Jacen again.
It'd have to be written carefully, though.

Of course, in this hypothetical scenario you could also have Jacen captured by Lumiya during the 5 years and brainwashed THEN when he screwed up (starting to regain some of his control) have him be replaced by the clone.

That would be even more retconning but might forgo any uncomfortable questions. The above scenario would allow Jacen not to be responsible for the worst of his atrocities and still be father of Allana.

 

The way galactic events happens every power-of-ten years

Foundation of the Republic? Exactly 25,000 years ago.*
The Hyperspace War? Exactly 5,000 years ago.
The Sith War? Exactly 4,000 years ago.
Darth Ruin? Exactly 2,000 years ago.
Ruusan? Exactly 1,000 years ago.

I keep waiting for someone to lampshade it, but it never happens!

*I can't stress how happy I am to see TOR has decided to make it 25,035 BBY.

 

interesting ideas, I can really see the good Jacen you hinted at there with Allana and Tenel Ka, still it would feel weird for me. it would be great of Jacen, though.. then the forums would be speculating who was the clone really, Jacen or Caedus

and Lumiya brainwashing captured Jacen is not really fitting her pov scenes of the books sadly. Though if Lumiya had real Jacen and the One Sith switched him with a clone... unbeknownst to Lumiya that would work. still how to save Jacen without him having committed any atrocity is still difficult. he did questionable things in Dark Nest already with preemptive strikes and such.

so exchanging him and a clone only works if done during the sojourn pre-Dark Nest... thereafter it raises more problems than it solves I fear. still I like your ideas a lot. hmm

 

I don't see a problem with that at all. Do we assume the war ended RIGHT then in the book?

 

Shadowspawn/Cronal also actually survived

 

If the main thing standing in the way of restoring Jacen is Tenel Ka and Allana... then, lol.

Who cares?

Hell, let's rub salt in the wound. Have real!Jacen come back with Danni Quee and be all "So we got married while I was on sabbatical. Sorry it took so long. Anything interesting happen while I was away?"

 

I love that. It'd even go back to the sort of philosophical questioning of what is real that first made people love the character.

 

I just put them down as propaganda, like his overhyped birth legends.