The controversy surrounding The Passion of the Christ

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Ender Sai, Feb 25, 2004.

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  1. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    You are welcome to pst here, but you are not welcome to continue to phrase things in ways that label the beliefs of others. Example:
    Christianity inherited its anti-Semitism from the Romans.
    This quote (to which my previous post was addressed) inherently calls Christianity anti-Semitic. You didn't mention anything about "western-European" anti-Semitism in that post, but instead only refered to Christian anti-Semitism. That is what was inappropriate.

    Your method of expressing your opinion there (by labelling others' beliefs) is inappropriate.


    Kimball Kinnison
  2. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I hope everyone here is mature enough to make the distinction between Christian texts, Christianity in world history, Hollywood films about Christianity, and their own personal beliefs as Christians.

    I believe The Passion is anti-Semitic. Other people have said that The Passion is "true to the gospels."

    There are several competing syllogisms here:

    1) The gospels of the New Testament are not anti-Semitic
    2) The film is true to the gospels
    3) Therefore the film is not anti-Semitic

    or

    1) The gospels are anti-Semitic
    2) The film is true to the gospels
    2) Therefore the film is anti-Semitic

    or

    1) The gospels are not anti-Semitic
    2) The film is anti-Semitic
    3) Therefore the film is not true to the gospels.

  3. Ki-Adi Bundi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2000
    star 4
    I believe in the second. This is my reason why: the jews didn't believe Jesus was the messiah, so the christians had to destabilize them somehow. Blaming the jews for the death of their main martyr was good enough.
  4. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    Or very possibly.

    1. The New Testament is anti semetic because Jabbadabbado says so.
    2. The film is anti semetic because Jabbadabbodo says so.
    3. Therefore, Jabbadabbao dois the worlds leading authority on anti semitism and is able to find it in creampuffs and milk saucers.

    You're jumping back and forth between the the film and reality with very little regard to anything approaching logic.

    In the films the romans hate the Jews. In reality it was Eastern Romans who eventually set up Christianity as the state rleigion. There fore Christianity is anti semetic and so is the film and since the film is like the bible the bible is too.


    What the hell? I mean seriously that logic has holes you an drive heards of buffalo through. and not just the current ones. I'm talking about pre-1700, from-horizon-to-horizon, stampeding-heards-of-death, buffalo.
  5. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Farraday, one of the first things I would do if I were going to rely on ad hominem attacks instead of real arguments is learn to spell.
  6. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    Well you capitilized my name so I figure we're even.

    I will ask you once again to provide proof of your accusations. I mean, four posts up you're saying "I believe it is anti-semetic".

    Please offer proof to back up your belief or admit you're prejudiced agaisnt christians and we can all ignore you, those of us who aren't already.
  7. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    There's no belief so outrageous that it can't find adherents. For example, I now know that there are people who believe that capitalizing the first word of a sentence is not an immutable rule of English grammar.

    I'm going to be the first person to agree that Christianity, in its broadest sense, teaches that Jesus died exclusively to redeem us, and not because he was murdered by Jews and bad Romans. We're all implicated, because we're all sinners (according to the text).

    But the New Testament, in its particulars, includes some uncomfortable passages that have been used for 2000 years as justification for anti-Semitic laws, anti-Semitic doctrines and beliefs. Perhaps the magnitude of the Holocaust permanently cured most Christians around the world of anti-Semitic tendencies. I certainly hope so.

    Clearly, the psychological impact of the contoversy has been positive. Christians who go see the movie are very much put on notice by all the media attention that they are not allowed to take away anti-Semitic messages from the film. That's a very good thing.
  8. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    I refuse to be exacting about grammar you refuse to be exacting about logic, god help us both.

    As it is I think your sin is slightly worse, but I am, of course, biased.

    I asked you for proof and you offer some pseudopsychological appraisment of christinaity. So I will ask you once again, and perhaps the cock will crow following, you provide some evidence to back up your belief.

  9. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    But the New Testament, in its particulars, includes some uncomfortable passages that have been used for 2000 years as justification for anti-Semitic laws, anti-Semitic doctrines and beliefs.

    What is the controversy in this statement? Do I have to reprove all of western European history between now and the alleged birth of Christ? Do I have to prove the burnings of Jews, the massacres of Jews, the inquisition and torture of Jews, the ghettoizing of Jews, the expulsion of Jews. Do I have to reprove the Holocaust and the fact that many Nazis based their anti-Semitism in Christian doctrine, that Nazi anti-Semitism was not purely a secular movement? Do I have to reprove the wide influence of Henry Ford's anti-Semitic writings among protestants in the United States?
  10. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    No, all of those are almost universally accepted facts, you need to offer proof as to causality and relevance.
  11. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    There's an error here about burden of proof. The history of Christianity, up to and including the 20th century and in the United States, is rife with anti-Semitism that purported to be justified in the text of the New Testament.

    Consequently, I think the burden is on Christians to prove that nothing in the gospels should be interpreted, or has been interpreted, as justification for anti-Semitic beliefs.

    The Passion, at best, demonstrates a lack of sensitivity to this issue.

    What I'd like to see is an honest admission from Christians that the New Testament's relationship to Judaism, and the film's as well to the extent to which it succeeds as a faithful interpretation of the gospel text, is problematic and a potential source of strife, while pointing out that modern Christians, unlike their predecessors, now have a more enlightened view of the meaning of the text, and reject any and all forms of anti-Semitism.

    Then we can go back to talking about the artistic shortcomings of the film.
  12. YadaYada Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2003
    star 1
    What we have here is war in a microcosm.

    Viewed from an elevated perspective, both sides are parially right and partially wrong, with many missing elements, and each side is unable to see the opposing view because of culturally imposed blinds.
  13. Lord_Makro Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2002
    star 2
    I really can't see why someone could say that the film is anti-semetic.
    It's just an accurate film; the Jews DID kill Jesus, it's not like they didn't and the film shows the opposite.
    What's wrong with this?
    Mel Gibson is really great!
  14. Jedi_Rhysode Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2004
    star 2
    Viewed from an elevated perspective... the high and mighty Yada 8-}
  15. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    "It's just an accurate film; the Jews DID kill Jesus, it's not like they didn't and the film shows the opposite."

    And people tell me I haven't posted proof. By that, Lord_Makro, I assume you mean that it's an accurate representation of the gospel text. Don't confuse the gospels with legitimate historical record.
  16. YadaYada Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2003
    star 1
    Rhysode, you can raise yourself also, if you believe in God, rather than in your preacher.
  17. MasterKingsama Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2003
    star 4
    Jabba, i think if you would present these problem passages that it would aid you in your arguement...
  18. Jedi_Rhysode Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2004
    star 2
    Rhysode, you can raise yourself also, if you believe in God, rather than in your preacher.

    You say it as if it's not possible to do both.
  19. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    MasterKing, I don't want to do that because I don't want to get into a fight over scriptural passages and their meaning. I leave that for Christians to play scripture-quoting ping pong with each other. My point is that the text of the new testament has been used up to the very recent past, up to and including much of the 20th century to justify persecution of the Jews, up until the point at which the Holocaust drove doctrinally entrenched anti-Semitism among Christians deep underground (eventually leading to the Holocaust denial movement of which Mel Gibson's father is an adherent).
  20. MasterKingsama Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2003
    star 4
    My point is that the text of the new testament has been used up to the very recent past, up to and including much of the 20th century to justify persecution of the Jews, up until the point at which the Holocaust drove doctrinally entrenched anti-Semitism among Christians deep underground (eventually leading to the Holocaust denial movement of which Mel Gibson's father is an adherent).

    well as with almost anything in life words can always be misconstrude to mean things that are completely contradictory to there actual intent. The blame should fall on the men and women that have used it as a tool to manipulate the masses, and not the book itself. If it were just to say that it is the bibles fault for it, then one would have to also condem the quran, the torah, evolutionary theory, marxism, existentialism, and the list can continue forever.

    As far as you being unwilling to share the verses, that makes no sense imo, and cripples your arguement. If you are going to make alligations about anything, positive or negative you should have some examples to back it up...
  21. YadaYada Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2003
    star 1
    It is not possible to both believe in God and your preacher. And that is the crux of the disagreements in this thread. Hate, prejudice come from personal and organizational needs to place ourselves above others. (Yes, I do specifically include myself in this regard)

    God is love. God unites all people. God is the God of the entire universe. ...

    Your preacher gets paid. Your preacher reports to his board. Your preacher preaches only to you and your congregation. Your preacher tells you that you are better than your fellow men. Your preacher tells you different things than your neighbor's preacher tells him. Your preacher "interprets" the word of God. ...

    And the US Treasury agrees with me. Just look at a greenback or coin. It does not say that 'IN RELIGION WE TRUST'
  22. MasterKingsama Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2003
    star 4
    Your preacher tells you that you are better than your fellow men

    mine surely doesnt...

    It is not possible to both believe in God and your preacher. And that is the crux of the disagreements in this thread. Hate, prejudice come from personal and organizational needs to place ourselves above others. (Yes, I do specifically include myself in this regard)

    God is love. God unites all people. God is the God of the entire universe. ...

    Your preacher gets paid. Your preacher reports to his board. Your preacher preaches only to you and your congregation. Your preacher tells you that you are better than your fellow men. Your preacher tells you different things than your neighbor's preacher tells him. Your preacher "interprets" the word of God. ...

    And the US Treasury agrees with me. Just look at a greenback or coin. It does not say that 'IN RELIGION WE TRUST'


    you might want to start a new thread on this topic, or throw it in s thread that it betters fits in so that it will spawn the discussion that it deserves...
  23. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    I have no interest in watching this film as I don't believe in Jesus or anything like that. I'd be so amused if someone actually believed I would change if I saw this movie. 8-}
  24. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    As far as you being unwilling to share the verses, that makes no sense imo, and cripples your arguement. If you are going to make alligations about anything, positive or negative you should have some examples to back it up...

    These are just some of the nicer passages from John, detailing how the Jews don't know God.

    Jhn 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law?

    Jhn 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

    Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
  25. Master_Fwiffo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2001
    star 3
    Congradulations Jabba, you managed to take EVERY SINGLE QUOTE out of context. Ahem.

    Jhn 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Finish the quote. 'Why are you trying to kill me.'

    Hes making a point about 'why are you trying to kill me, if your supposedly following the law'? Remember, Jesuss whole point was that the Pharasees had corrupted the Jewish religious system.

    Puts that in a whole new light, no?

    Jhn 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

    Did you have to pick the hardest version of the bible to read?

    Heres this verse again, and with the following verse:

    Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, "Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him, but I know him because I am from him and he sent me."

    Catch that bit?

    Again, misquoted.


    Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


    Out of COntext Again. Full section:

    Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

    Pretty damning for my case eh? Well, look at the paragraph BEFORE it.

    To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
    They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants[2] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
    Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[3] "
    "Abraham is our father," they answered.
    "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[4] do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the things your own father does."
    "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

    Once again, you have to look at the full context. AGain, there are those Jesus is speaking too who are determiend to kill him, and its to them he speaks those words.

    BTW, 'the father, your devil', is used many times, virtualy always in the sense that 'we are of the world, do not be of the world' sense.
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