Saga The Dagobah Tree Moment of the Prequels

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthWolvo23, Dec 18, 2011.

  1. DarthWolvo23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    I felt for a while like the Dagobah moment from TESB was missing from the PT.

    You know, a Skywalker entering a dark place through a small hole

    [image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/12133.jpg]

    Seeing something that angers them and then deciding a beheading was in order

    [image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/12135.jpg]

    But....

    maybe....

    [image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/12132.jpg]

    [image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/12134.jpg]


    Maybe, Dagobah and Tatooine are not too different in terms of the Skywalker story....

    [image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/12137.jpg]

    [image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/12136.jpg]

    [image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/11941.jpg]

    [image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/11940.jpg]
  2. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Excellent points/graphics, DW!

    There are deeper ties and variations, too.

    For one, note how Luke only drops down a few feet, partially prompted by Yoda to go into the cave, while Anakin enters the Tusken camp of his own accord, plunging a super-human distance from a cliff face, with the stars aglow: a troubled angel falling from heaven.

    Anakin is incapable of learning anything positive from his encounter, while Luke is disturbed with his own visage within the exploded mask of Vader; though, he, too, disappointingly (for Yoda, anyway), decides upon an impromptu "rescue" (mirroring the Jedi's intervention on Geonosis, also), leading to violence, dismemberment and a further revelation (that seemingly clarifies the earlier mask revelation with stunning alacrity, but also obfuscates some of its other meanings, perhaps). Only in the next film does Luke triumph; though he does so, in large part, by reflecting on what he lost by confronting Vader (not the cave sequence), and mentally noting their common heritage and shared experiences.

    Talking of "shared experiences"... Note that Anakin and Luke both behead masked "monsters" in defence of, and retaliation for harm done, to loved ones. Specifically, the removal of the head, in many a sense, does appear to signify (and this is only one basic level the shots are working on, in my opinion) that the characters doing the head-removal (i.e., Anakin and Luke) are the ones doing damage to their own capacity to reason and think things through. In dark parody of classic Jedi advice (given in separate films by Obi-Wan and Yoda), Anakin and Luke are reaching out with their feelings, to literally slice the head off and kill a putative oppressor.

    Finally, Yoda's crestfallen appearance in that shot on Dagobah. That has to now encapsulate, in part, his rumination upon the intimation of Anakin's pain he once felt from the now-vanquished days of the Old Republic (when he was still in a position to do something about it), as well as the notion that Yoda didn't specifically need weapons (as he cautions Luke right before Luke walks into the cave fully armed) when he confronted the separatists on Geonosis or the Emperor on Coruscant (and these were, first and foremost, his own decisions: in each film, he informs a fellow Jedi, and potential companion, that he will be taking, in effect, the lion's share of the (morally dubious) action, immediately before doing so: i.e., inspecting/collecting the clones for deployment in a major war effort and privately battling the incumbent ruler of a political system he previously served under). This character made some grave mistakes; and through Luke, he must partially relive them. Deep this saga is.
  3. DarthWolvo23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    Excellent points Cryo.

    There are a lot more to come if enough interest can be generated....
  4. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    I really like the graphics. It helps sell your thesis. :cool:
  5. DarthWolvo23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    Precisely.

    The Star Wars films, above all else, are about visual storytelling. Certain shots are repeated throughout the Saga to indicate to us the cyclical nature of the story and life in general.
  6. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
  7. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    It depends on what you mean by "The Dagobah Tree Moment."

    If you mean a visually similar sequence, then I think you did a great job in finding it.

    If you mean a sequence that has the same meaning/connotation, you will never find it because it doesn't exist. Anakin never experiences a darkside induced metaphorical vision.
  8. MissPadme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Very interesting! Nice work!

    --MissPadme
  9. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Oh, I would contend that he does. Specifically, the recurring Padme "premonition," which is in fact a ruse fostered by Palpatine. Having been told the circumstances behind Shmi's death--and the psychological fallout--Palpatine aims to usher his future apprentice into the "Dagobah cave" by way of fallacious prophecy. He plants the prospect of Padme's childbirth demise into Anakin's head, thereby compelling the boy to chase the tail of his own evil personage, until the two merge.




  10. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Palpatine doesn't cause Anakin to have these visions of Padme's death. Anakin has them just like he did about his mother and just like Luke did about his friends on Bespin.
  11. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    The recurring Shmi visions were produced while she was actually being tortured, thereby conforming with reality; the recurring Padme visions, on the other hand, were nebulous, as they were prophetic in nature. I would aver they were deceptions, planted by Palpatine.

    ROTS gives us several clues: first, Palpatine was told of Anakin's Tatooine transgressions, which would open the proper channel for seducing him; second, he knew of the Padme premonitions with nary a word from Anakin, evidenced by the Operahouse exchange and the Office confrontation (compare the specificity with Yoda's foggier needling in the meditation chamber); third, the Palpatine voiceover Anakin "hears" in the Jedi Temple, implicitly linking the two on a metaphysical level.


  12. oierem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Mmm, I wasn't sure about that but I think you've convinced me. it fits nicely and is consistent with what is shown in the film.
    Ultimately, I guess, the vision was "fake"; if Anakin hadn't done anything it Padme wouldn't have died (unlike the other visions). Anakin had lost his mother and was led to a trap by Palpatine with a new fake vision. The irony, of course, is that Anakin manages to make that vision true.
  13. DarthWolvo23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    Interesting thoughts although I would contend that the 2 situations are similar regardless of the source of Anakins visions.

    Both situations show a Skywalker descending into a test where they face their greatest fear. For Luke this is the perceived murderer of his father and slayer of Kenobi where as for Anakin it is his fear of helplessness to save the ones he loves.

    Both Skywalkers fail this test.

    The fact Luke enters a cave set up as a test but Anakin doesn't is not relevant IMO. The test is for them to overcome their innermost fears.
  14. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    Agreed 10000%

    Im glad someone finally brought this up.
  15. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    This has been brought up before, but I'm glad people are catching on.
  16. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5
    Anakin knew what he was walking into. Luke didn't. Big difference.

    In fact, Anakin walked into several tense situations throughout the PT. Just because he happened to walk through a small hole in this case doesn't make it a "Dagobah Tree Moment", in my opinion.

    Anakin was going to leave with his mother, one way or another. Therefore, he had already thrown away any test of character this situation presented him with. Luke had no idea what was about to happen. His fear took over and the image of Vader appeared, which Luke reacted to out of fear. His fear brought on Vader and also helped him kill the image. This is nothing like Anakin cutting a hole in a hut and freeing mom. Anakin's only fear was getting caught. But he knew that going in.


    Visually, yeah, they are similar. But that's where the comparison ends for me.
  17. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Muchas gracias, DW.

    I look forward to more.

    Well, really, one can contend that every shot is repeated, in a staggering array of permutations. In fact, one can even say that every aspect of these films repeats, with subtle shifts and slides, leading to a prodigiously-complex, tightly-integrated cinematic tapestry.

    It can further be contended that Luke's visions were implanted by Palpatine, too. And whether they really were directly put there or arose as a result of Palpatine's labyrinthine machinations, we must consider Palpatine's boast in the final installment: "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design!" It's surely also easy to regard Anakin's visions as self-generated -- or, at least, self-provoked -- in light of his own nascent abilities and troubled psychology both. What makes the latter, Padme-based vision(s) particularly poignant, in this regard, is they seem to stem from Anakin's own sense of inferiority; of not deserving what he has found and obtained along life's vexatious path. Re-watch the scene of him admiring Padme from afar. Listen to how he he remarks, "You are so beautiful!" To me, the character is trying to fathom, in that very moment, how he ever got with a gal like Padme, much less married her and fathered a child; or, more accurately, how she got with him. The character is finally able to catch his breath, only to question the present moment and all that it could mean. It's no big surprise, to me, that he dreams of losing Padme immediately after this scene. And also consider that "Apocalypse Now" homage in ROTJ, with Luke hiding from Vader beneath the stairwell, struggling to contain his emotions as he threatens to unspool before our very eyes. It is during this tense retreat that Vader learns of Leia ("Siss-terrrr...."), seemingly plucking the information right from Luke's head. It can be imagined, then, that Palpatine did something similar with Anakin, learning critical information because Anakin was leaking his thoughts into the dead of night, radiating like a lighthouse. The strife was more than written on Anakin's face: it was in the air, on the air,
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But we should also consider his arrogance and the fact that it's exactly what he would be expected to say regardless of circumstances.

    Palpatine is not really a "snake oil salesman" in the true sense of the term, given that his "snake oil" actually works. In his case, you can just stop at snake.
  19. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    True. And in the PT, there definitely appear to be circumstances that undermine this claim. For instance, in TPM, he seems pretty surprised by Amidala's decision to leave Coruscant in favour of militaristic action on Naboo, and her teaming with the Gungans seems equally unanticipated by Palpatine. In ROTS, he seems unnerved when Yoda flings him over his chair (just after he boasted, "Now you will experience the full power of the Dark Side!", slamming the toad against the wall with a sudden blast of fingertip energy), and there is real concern in his voice when he announces, "I sense Lord Vader is in danger!" (right after angrily instructing that a search for Yoda's body be doubled because he failed to finish him off). Palpatine is not an invincible, infallible character by any stretch. But he's very shrewd and cunning nonetheless. His final-installment boast has some weight behind it, even if it must be taken with qualifications (but then, isn't this true of all of Palpatine's speech?). Moreover, I thought that this is what I was doing (i.e., taking it with qualifications). Above, I was advocating for a bigger-picture view of Palpatine's scheming, where his design is large enough, from a certain point of view, to account for everything that happens, even if the character did not plan or foresee every last detail.

    He sells Anakin the rather fanciful idea of being able to prevent death through metaphysical means. Given the way in which Palpatine implies Anakin must act in order to attain this power, and the way Palpatine generally presents information to his young protege and butters him up, I'm going to stick with "snale oil salesman", myself. There's some wiggle room, perhaps, but not enough -- in this context, anyway -- to be all that bothered about; in my opinion.
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "Fanciful" in real life? Pretty much.

    "Fanciful" in metaphysical space fantasy Star Wars? Not really.

    The way in which Palpatine implies Anakin must act in order to attain this power is entirely in keeping with the metaphysical underpinnings of the saga ( not to mention EU precedent ).

    Also, it stands to reason that Palpatine would handle a powerful Jedi somewhat differently than he would handle a Force-blind "man on the street".

    A snake oil salesman is selling something fake that doesn't work.

    This doesn't describe Palpatine.
    [image=http://massassi.hobby-site.com/massassi/pictures/episode_3/img/lava_river07.jpg]
  21. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Well, you're right that it's inherently less fanciful in a work like the one it is found within, and this certainly nuances Anakins' submission to Palpatine, I think. What is improbable mysticism at best in our world is within-grabbing-distance-plausible in Star Wars. Even then, however, the idea remains rather fanciful, if for no other reason than no-one else demonstrates the kind of power Palpatine talks about; and he talks about it explicitly in terms of "legend", citing a mythical figure he claims possessed an ability beyond the other players of the story, even as he goes as far as implying he knew this person and killed them, to Anakin, subsequently assuring him that they can "discover the secret" by working together. So, again, not as crazy as it would be and is to our world, but still requiring a certain leap of faith to believe, as it were. And Lucas shows us what that leap of faith itself requires: a solipsistic worldview knitted together from desperation, dejection, dissatisfaction and a supreme lack of doubt -- the malignant afterglow of a scorched ego.

    Yes, I know what a snake oil salesman is, archetypally speaking, and that's why I trotted out the term for Palpatine (and have done so before). Okay, Palpatine has real abilities within the movies that transcend and/our outrage our conventional understanding of the real world and the way it works, but even in the fantastical setting of Star Wars, he has his limits - he may subdue Anakin, but he still calls upon technology (a medical capsule followed by a life-support suit) to sustain Anakin's life. X + Y /= Z (where X and Y are supernatural, Force-powered abilities). Technology and magic are partnered in Star Wars; one neglects or shuns the other at their peril. A big delusion arises from the belief -- within Star Wars, never mind without -- that one's own potential or prowess can be exclusively called upon to tap into an exotic "other" to allay or even subvert the transient nature of the universe.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Force powers, including the hand-waving of the Jedi, don't require technology. As we've seen, a Sith can generate lightning without needing any technological equipment.

    While there are only a handful of Sith in the entire film saga.

    Things change when you're in a universe whose metaphysical energy field is all too unequivocally real. For a Jedi who's been using seemingly magical powers for most of his life, all it really takes is a belief in powers exclusive to the dark side of the Force, which itself requires only an acceptance of the Force's duality and an understanding that the sides of the Force have distinct properties, and you're almost there. Those conclusions are all accurate, and the logic would be accessible to a Jedi without emotional problems; there is no incredible leap of faith required from a purely Force-mechanical standpoint. The "desperation, dejection, dissatisfaction" nexus is necessary only to make the "leap" of turning against one's own comrades, not to believe in the existence of the power.

    [ Darth Plagueis spoiler ]
    In the EU, we know the power to save the dying exists; it was said to exist in Dark Lord, and its use is depicted in Darth Plagueis, not to mention much earlier analogues such as that appearing in the TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith comic series.
  23. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    The recurring Shmi visions were produced while she was actually being tortured, thereby conforming with reality; the recurring Padme visions, on the other hand, were nebulous, as they were prophetic in nature. I would aver they were deceptions, planted by Palpatine.

    ROTS gives us several clues: first, Palpatine was told of Anakin's Tatooine transgressions, which would open the proper channel for seducing him; second, he knew of the Padme premonitions with nary a word from Anakin, evidenced by the Operahouse exchange and the Office confrontation (compare the specificity with Yoda's foggier needling in the meditation chamber); third, the Palpatine voiceover Anakin "hears" in the Jedi Temple, implicitly linking the two on a metaphysical level.



    I have to disagree. I feel that many have given Palpatine too much credit over the years. He may have beeen strong with the Force, but not that strong. I feel those visions were a reflection of the Skywalkers' own fears, reflections and connections to the Force. Not even Palpatine had that much control.
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It's an interesting theory. I think there is simply not enough evidence to either confirm it or disprove it.
  25. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    For part 1, both the Shmi and Padme visions are identical to what Luke saw. Luke saw they were in danger on Cloud City even before they WERE on Bespin or Han was tortured.
    Part 2, there is no evidence that Palpatine caused these visions in ANY source.

    Why would you think Palpatine was told about "Anakin's Tatooine transgressions" but he wasn't told about "the Padme premonitions"? It's safe to say that Palpatine was told about both by Anakin himself.

    As far as Anakin hearing Palpatine, it's called Telepathy. Luke uses it to contact Leia and Vader uses it to contact Luke. No implicit link on a metaphysical level.

    =D= EXACTLY=D=

    You cannot be serious. Please tell me you're not serious.[face_hypnotized]