Saga The Dagobah Tree Moment of the Prequels

Lucas is primarily a visual storyteller. If two scenes in his films are filmed in a visually similar way I believe there is normally a deeper meaning to it. I don't think many of the instances are chance.

Permit me to post some more examples to bolster my point?

Agreed. I too love GL's visual storytelling. I have always seen the anakin/mother/tusken thing as the dagobah tree moment of the prequels and i think it parallels luke in TESB perfectly. To deny that they are supposed to mirror and contrast each other is like trying to deny that the anakin/dooku duel in ROTS is supposed to mirror the duel from ROTJ. Its just a common fact at this point.

In almost all the audio commentary's Lucas specifically stresses how he set everything up in the PT to mirror and contrast, expand on and play off of the things that happened in the OT in order to give the saga as a whole more emotional depth and meaning overall. So that we see the importance, the differences and the similarity's of the choices both father and son make and where it ultimately takes each one. This is one of the reasons why i love AOTC. Because it is absolutely FILLED with the meat and potatoes of the saga.

Precisely - I mean to me AOTC is the closest the PT got to the OT. (That by the way is not praise or derision, merely fact IMO.)

It is also my favourite Star Wars movie.

Anyway, further visual proof of the connection between the events on Dagobah in the OT and Tatooine in the PT:

Before the test:

[image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/10168.jpg]

[image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/10169.jpg]

[image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/11890.jpg]

[image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/11891.jpg]

Another similarity in the death scenes related to these situations. For Anakin the death of his mother which leads to his anger, for Luke the death of Yoda a year after his test in the cave which he witnesses with relative calm:

[image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/11942-1.jpg]

[image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/11943-1.jpg]

[image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/11948-1.jpg]

[image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/11949-1.jpg]





So, next question,what do people make of these related images???




[image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/12079.jpg]

[image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/SW/12078.jpg]

Palpatine sending Anakin visions doesn't make sense

1) it implies he knows EVERYTHING, and that he is omniscient, he'd have to know exactly when to plant the dream into his conscious, to the exact moment she dies for Anakin to be there. Same with Padme, to suggest that he knew padme would die would mean he really knows that the twins are not dead.

and that "all knowing Palpatine" didn't know he was going to get kicked in the face by windu and lose the duel?


2) if he's that akin to sending visions why didn't he send loads to Yoda and Mace?

say Ric olie was the sith they had been looking for.

Surely if two jedi had the vision, then that to them was "the force" guiding them?

It's an interesting thought, certainly. But IMO the cave on Dagobah was a warning to Luke to be careful what path he treads, for the moral is that he can become Vader -- nevermind the literal exposition of this information that Vader is Luke's father.

In other words, if Luke failed this test of overcoming his fears, how was he supposed to pass? Anakin, on the other hand, could have let his mother slip away and not slaughtered an entire village of sand people -- in real life, not in a vision. Luke also did not actually kill anybody.

Interesting but it's all in the usage of camera angle -- used in this case to imply dominance. Camera angle was heavily used this way in the OT (none more illustrative than the opening Star Destroyer chase in ANH) whereas the prequels had a lot of flat angles.

I don't really see parallels in anything other than visual coincidence and the fact that both are saber battled ending with one character defeated on his back -- in one Vader is revealing the truth and offering a way out to Luke, in the other Mace is dropping the hammer on Palpatine. Perhaps if Mace were attacking Anakin (which would have been an interesting way to approach the turn sequence

In one scene there is a 3rd party witness, in the other there is not. Although both do involve falls from great heights, one a murder the other an attempted suicide. One is shortly after the revelation of a hidden truth, the other just before.

It does make sense, in a way. Not sure if I entirely believe it but anyway:
1)NO, it just implies that he was told about the wedding or could sense that Anakin was in love with Padme (pretty obvious). the "what did you say?" from Anakin in the reveal scene implies that he didn't tell anything about that to Palpatine.

I'm not saying that he knew that Padme would die. The wonderful irony of that vision is that it only happens because Anakin believes it will happen. Therefore, it can be seen as a "fake" vision (unlike the others); because someone is "playing "with the force to create that vision, it happens. Wonders of the Force

And I don't think that Palpatine lost the duel, anyway. However, he is not omniscent at all.


Think about this: Palpatine clearly wanted Anakin on his side and he was working to seduce him. Since he knew what happened to Shmi (as revealed in the movie, Anakin told him), wouldn't it be logical to actively use that weakness of Anakin? When Palpatine says that the Sith had the possibility of avoiding death, he already knew that Anakin had had these visions. What's more logical: the visions as a mere coincidence, or the visions as something created by Palpatine?

I completely agree with Lucas being a visual storyteller. It's one of the things he really excels at. I also agree that the two scenes are VISUALLY the same. That doesn't mean they have the same meaning, just that the visuals play off of each other. I'll explain what I mean in a second.

Please do. Although I disagree that these scenes mean the same thing, the visuals are great.

Exactly. On Dagobah, Luke causes the Vader apparation to appear by taking his weapons and fear into the cave. This is controlled by Luke's subconscious and reveals to Luke the consequences of going down the path to the darkside. It also foreshadows Vader's revelation later on. If Luke enters the cave sans weapons, the vision would've been different.

Nothing like this happens to Anakin in the Tusken village. This scene does not serve the same purpose as Dagobah did for Luke. Anakin goes there to rescue his mother but gets there too late and murders the entire village (partly out of revenge, but also out of neccessity to escape). There's no moral warning in this scene for Anakin to avoid the darkside. It's a simple rescue mission more akin to rescuing Han or Leia, except the captive dies. Anakin's weapon, fear, and subconscious do not impact the situation. If Mace showed up at the village, Shmi still would have died and there still would have been a village of Tuskens. The actual metaphorical contrast is between Anakin killing the Tusken village out of rage and Luke wiping out Jabba's guards without negative emotions.

So yes, the rescue mission is the VISUAL Dagobah Tree Moment of the Prequels, it is not the metaphorical Dagobah Tree Moment of the Prequels. The prequels do not have this metaphorical moment. The closest we had was in The Clone Wars micro-series.

As for Vader and Mace - GREAT visual comparison, but once again the substance of the scenes are different. Vader wants to seduce Luke to the darkside and Luke jumps to avoid it. Mace wants to kill Palpatine, but Mace gets killed instead with help from Anakin. I think the substance comparison (although visually different) comes with Vader blocking Luke's strike in Jedi to save Palpatine and Anakin saving Palpatine from Mace.

And yes, the duel with Dooku is visually and substantially comparable to the duel in RotJ, with one exception. Anakin didn't turn until the Mace duel and Luke would've turned after killing Vader. So, the RotJ duel is actually mirrored in 2 duels from RotS.

One more thought regarding the Mace and Vader scenes. While those 2 camera angels are pretty spot on, I actually think the scene with Mace is more comparable to the scene in RotJ when Luke has the saber at Vader's throat.

Both scenes:
1) involve a third person standing nearby
2) involve Jedi waiting to strike down a Sith Lord
3) involve the person holding the saber being hit with Force Lightning
4) involve a Skywalker's decision to join the darkside
5) involve the loss of a hand

The key difference are:
1) Luke deactivates his saber and lives while Mace tries a killing blow and dies (moral lessen there)
2) Anakin pleads with Mace to spare Palpatine, while Palpatine encourages Luke to kill Vader. Neither Mace nor Luke do what's being asked of them.
3) Anakin joins the darkside and Luke resists the darkside


That, my friends, is a perfect mirror. Characters in a like situation, responding differently, with a different outcome.

Can I ask - for the scenes that you think are visual mirrors - what do you think is behind Lucas' decision to mirror the scenes so closely if not to link the story points together?

Lucas uses both visual mirrors and meaning/context mirrors. Sometimes he combines then in the same scene and sometimes he doesn't (using one but not the other). Visual mirrors are used as just that, visual mirrors. They use images to convey a visual link, but they do not always convey the same meaning. Thats what meaning/context mirrors are for. Sometimes, visual links have no meaning beyond the visual link. (I think GL discussed visual links in one of the AotC web docs involving the Jedi Starfighter and the Stardestroyers).

Another example of a visual mirror is Owen standing on the ridge and Luke standing on the ridge. Both are visually the same, but they convey different meanings. Luke's scene represents his yearning to leave and become an adult, while Owen's doesn't really represent anything. It is merely used as a visual mirror to Luke's scene.

One example of the meaning/context mirror (without visual mirror) is Dooku asking Kenobi to join him and Vader doing the same with Luke.

One example where both mirrors are used is Anakin destroying the droid control ship and Luke destroying the Death Star, complete with celebrations.

I partially buy this but I am not convinced.

I think the Luke/Owen visual mirror is a bad example.

That scene was mirrored for 2 reasons:

1. The very last shot of the Saga harks back to one of the iconic shots from the first film in the Saga, so the 'circle is completed' if you will, for the viewer.
2. In universe the shot represents destiny. The reason the shot is used is to remind us Luke is destined for greater things and that there is still hope in the Galaxy. In episode order the shots now bookend that part of Luke's life he is protected from his greater destiny - that is the part where he is just a farmer.

Have you any other examples of scenes that are mirrored purely for visual reasons because I don't think any of the mirrors are purely visual. It would be pointless. If a scene is an echo of another scene there is always a reason.

For what its worth, for the two comparisons I have posted so far:

Tattooine Slaughter/Dagobah Cave:

Both show the hero of the respective trilogy tested by the darkside for the first time. Both times the heroes fail. Luke's is a methaphorical test but it is linked to the Tusken test not only visually but also by the fact it is the Tusken Slaughter that first reawakens the disembodied form of Qui Gon and alerts Yoda to his presence, this is further linked to Dagobah in the Clone Wras miniseries where Yoda then has a vision of Qui Gon sending young Anakin into the cave on Dagobah - showing him a warped view of his own future with Luke.

Vader/Mace:

I think these similar shots are designed to show that Mace is in the wrong in this situation and to further give the viewer the impression that, from Anakin's point of view, the Jedi are npt so "good".

Hence why it is a visual mirror.

I disagree about this shot representing destiny. Ever since SW came out, this shot was described as representing Luke's yearning, not his destiny. Owen's scene does not represent yearning or destiny, although I will definitely give you that it represents hope.

There is always a reason. Sometimes the reason is purely visual though.

Off the top of my head, purely visual mirrors:
1) overhead stardestroyer in ANH and every other opening
2) the pan down (except AotC, which pans up)
3) falcon hiding on SD bridge and Kenobi hiding on asteroid
4) all the bottomless shafts
5) ending shots of ESB and AotC (I'm talking ending shot, not the mechanical hand)
6) the hallway appearance during the Bespin and Mustafar duels
5)

This is an incorrect statement. Anakin's attempted rescue of his mother was a mission he undertook, just like Luke's rescue of Han. It was not a test, let alone a test by the darkside. The ending involved an act by Anakin that showed he couldn't control his emotions. An act that only hapened at the end when his mission failed. The entire scene with Luke is a test, right from the beginning. Besides, Obi-Wan was the hero of the PT.

We can get back to this, because those are definitely visual mirrors. Their meanings and place in the story are completely different. Yoda's death was natural and took place a full year after Luke's test in the cave and is not even related to Luke's test. Shmi was murdered by the tuskens, which is why Anakin flipped out. Yoda died of old age, so why would Luke flip out? Who would he murder?

The true meaning mirror to the Shmi death scene is in ANH when Luke sees Owen and Beru. He doesn't wig out like Anakin, and go kill some stormtroopers. He calmly resolves to be a Jedi. This is the meaning mirror. Just like Shmi's rescue/death scene, it is NOT a test by the darkside.

Off the top of my head, purely visual mirrors:
1) overhead stardestroyer in ANH and every other opening
OPENING SHOTS I WILL GIVE YOU
2) the pan down (except AotC, which pans up)
AOTC - THE FILM THAT WILL TURN EVERYTHING ON ITS HEAD, THE REPUBLIC ARE THE BAD GUYS, ANAKIN MIGHT BE A BAD GUY ETC
3) falcon hiding on SD bridge and Kenobi hiding on asteroid
STORY PARALLEL - YOU CANNOT SAY THIS IS NOT A STORY MIRROR, ASTEROID FIELDS, HIDING FROM ENEMIES, BOBA LEARNS FROM HIS DAD'S MISTAKE
4) all the bottomless shafts
SYMBOLIC NOT PURELY VISUAL - USED FOR STORYTELLING PURPOSES
5) ending shots of ESB and AotC (I'm talking ending shot, not the mechanical hand)
SHOWS THE SIMILAR PATHS OF FATHER/MOTHER/SON/DAUGHTER WITH THE DROIDS BEING THE CONSTANTS BY THEIR SIDES. BOTH SCENES ARE OF CONTEMPLATING THE FUTURE.
6) the hallway appearance during the Bespin and Mustafar duels
SHOWS THE DUELS ARE OF A SIMILAR NATURE (FATHER V SON, BROTHER V BROTHER)

This is an incorrect statement. Anakin's attempted rescue of his mother was a mission he undertook, just like Luke's rescue of Han. It was not a test, let alone a test by the darkside. The ending involved an act by Anakin that showed he couldn't control his emotions. An act that only hapened at the end when his mission failed. The entire scene with Luke is a test, right from the beginning. Besides, Obi-Wan was the hero of the PT.


WHAT DO YOU THINK A "TEST BY THE DARKSIDE" MEANS?

OBI WAN BEING THE HERO OF THE PT IS DEBATEABLE BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT

2) the pan down (except AotC, which pans up)
AOTC - THE FILM THAT WILL TURN EVERYTHING ON ITS HEAD, THE REPUBLIC ARE THE BAD GUYS, ANAKIN MIGHT BE A BAD GUY ETC
The other pan downs are visual mirrors without meaning. How exactly you subscribe the pan up to "turning everything on its head" is beyond me. The republic are not the bad guys and AotC doesn't turn anything on its head.

3) falcon hiding on SD bridge and Kenobi hiding on asteroid
STORY PARALLEL - YOU CANNOT SAY THIS IS NOT A STORY MIRROR, ASTEROID FIELDS, HIDING FROM ENEMIES, BOBA LEARNS FROM HIS DAD'S MISTAKE
Visual mirror. Boba didn't learn anything because neither he nor Jango knew Kenobi pulled this trick.

4) all the bottomless shafts
SYMBOLIC NOT PURELY VISUAL - USED FOR STORYTELLING PURPOSES
What purposes? these are visual clues used to show continuity, not to imply any meaning/story connection. The plethora of bottomless shafts do not all represent the same thing.

5) ending shots of ESB and AotC (I'm talking ending shot, not the mechanical hand)
SHOWS THE SIMILAR PATHS OF FATHER/MOTHER/SON/DAUGHTER WITH THE DROIDS BEING THE CONSTANTS BY THEIR SIDES. BOTH SCENES ARE OF CONTEMPLATING THE FUTURE.
Visually shows similar paths, not metaphorically. The meaning and feeling of each scene are completely different.

6) the hallway appearance during the Bespin and Mustafar duels
SHOWS THE DUELS ARE OF A SIMILAR NATURE (FATHER V SON, BROTHER V BROTHER)
The hallways do not represent the nature of the duels. They only show visual simularities.

WHAT DO YOU THINK A "TEST BY THE DARKSIDE" MEANS?
Maybe you should define the term since you coined it, and I can see if I agree with you. I understand the term to imply the darkside conducting a test. Luke's test and when characters are tempted to join the darkside are "tests by the darkside." Anakin acting out of anger is not a test but a reaction. Albiet a reaction that could lead him to the darkside, but it is not a test by the darkside.

I don't know about this. Vader charging at his enemy down a hallway seems like much more than purely visual. It's a big character moment. It's not just the hallway. Some lightsaber fights resemble a dance, but when Vader wants to kill someone he's far from a dancer.

Also, just for a sake of argument. So what if Boba didn't see what Obi-Wan actually did above Geonosis? He could have figured it out. "Gee, that Jedi isn't dead. The last time I saw him was in an asteroid field. I wonder how he could have hidden... in an asteroid field." see

We all agree Lucas is a visual storyteller. Sometimes it's actually telling a story. Other times it's just a visual callback, empty calories as far as the story goes.

Kind of like when a modern car uses visual callbacks or cues from iconic cars of the past. It's meant as a wink, as a tribute, not to imply any actual linkage.

Actually, if you put thought into it -- which is probably not a good idea -- at the time it was meant to show that Boba was as sneaky and dirty as Solo was and knew all his tricks.

But if you're trying to put thought behind it, it's completely illogical. The bounty hunters were called to the Star Destroyer (from where?) and presumably would have docked their ships in the Star Destroyer's landing bays (and hey weren't they on the Executor since they were talking to Vader?), so how would Boba have known Han was going to pull that trick on that Star Destroyer, and then approach that battleship without requesting clearance and dock to it -- or entered its garbage hold more appropriately because we don't see Slave I docked to the Star Destroyer as far as I know, so it must have been in the garbage hold since it is drifting with the rest of the debris... Well how exactly would you do that if the hold is closed, which it would have been... Not to mention he would have had to insert his ship into the garbage hold before Solo even made his pass at the ship -- and it's pretty remarkable that Boba would have anticipated not only which trick Solo would resort to but which of the pursuing Star Destroyers he would do it against. So he would have approached the Star Destroyer and asked the captain to open the garbage hold so he can hide his ship in it because he thinks a rebel they are not yet pursuing will use a trick that involves floating away with the fleet garbage? Not to mention wasn't the Executor physically removed by some distance from the other pursuing Star Destroyers, as we never see them in formation and they communicate by hologram?

It's one of many Star Wars moments that requires you to not think and just take it as it just happened that way because it had to happen for the story.

I can't tell you that.

Generally speaking: it helps if you have imagination and/or can think laterally.

Yes, I was being serious, when I posted those comments, a couple of weeks ago.

No, you have not apprehended my real meanining, unfortunately.

Just some basic reflections on these visual mash-ups:

"Before the test" -->

The presence of tendrils (flora) suggests the primal, knotted psyche of these films' protagonists; as well as the moral jungle they're entering into. Further, Anakin is Padme's supplicant, while Luke is Yoda's; yet both supplicants fail to gain much serenity from the "soothing" presence of their elders, choosing, instead, to defy them in some capacity for their own sense of security/stability (which, ironically, plunges them further into doubt and darkness). Anakin and Luke are both still learners, and avowedly so, yet they reach a point of heightened anguish and believe an interventionist course is the *only* course they can take, in the service of saving loved ones. They leave places of fecundity -- sanctuaries -- for places of austerity and western-like expanses of vast nothingness (Tatooine/Bespin --> both, apparently, "sparsely populated", and barely hospitable to human(oid) life). Their impending confrontation with physical desolation portends a moral one. Will they -- have they already? -- become "more machine than man" as a result of their stances and actions?

"Death" -->

More cave imagery. Very adroit. Notably, the characters (and their situations/responses?) are laterally inverted: i.e, Anakin on left, Shmi on right; Luke on right, Yoda on left. When Shmi dies, Anakin glances up and to the right of camera/screen; when Yoda passes, Luke is shown glancing down and to the left. The right of the screen tends to be where war/conflict/aggression predominantly arises. Think of the rebel attack on the Death Star in ANH; the Imperials assaulting the rebel base in TESB; the droid army attacking the Gungans in TPM; and the attack by the Republic on the separatists in AOTC. Racing to Shmi, Anakin also traverses the rocky terrain of Tatooine from right to left on his (borrowed) swoop bike, framed in front of the saga's iconic binary suns (complete with lens flare -- i.e., visually, the suns are "devouring" Anakin; as if destiny is swallowing him up). Movement from right to left, primarily, I think, represents regression. Western script is read left to right (text and mathematical equations), so movement that flows in the reverse direction is grating: it "shouldn't" be, but it i

Words cannot do that post justice

LOL! My thanks, DW! Just some basic thoughts, really. It's possible to ruminate on these things forever.

Please hurry up and get round to writing a book!

I strongly disagree about that - I think that in the case of both Anakin's vision of his mother and Luke's vision of his friends suffering, it was the Force trying to provide each of them with positive guidance.

Anakin had a vision of his mother suffering, but did not act on it until it was too late. What would have happened if he had arrived earlier? Almost certainly, he would not have slaughtered the Sand People. And more importantly, there would have been another voice of reason for him to talk to - someone who would provide him better advice than Palpatine did. Luke had a vision of his friends suffering, and he ignored Yoda and ran off to rescue them. What did it gain him? He learned that Darth Vader was his father, and Artoo was able to save Leia, Lando, Threepio and Chewie. What did it cost him? His right hand, and a measure of his innocence. What would it cost him if he had not gone?

His friends and his sister would be dead or in the hands of the Emperor. Palpatine might even have found more convenient replacement for Vader. And Luke, held back from rescuing his friends, would have grown resentful of Yoda and Obi-Wan for holding him back. He would have been more likely to fall to the Dark Side himself. Anakin was told not to follow his visions, and the result was that his mother died, he lost one of the few people that could have turned him around, and he grew more resentful of the Jedi. Luke followed his visions and eventual result was the defeat of the Empire and the redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

Given the nature of the visions, given the results for following and for not following, I can't say that I think Palpatine had anything to do with them.

This is an amazing thread! I am in awe of DarthWolvo23 and Cryogenic.