Saga The Dagobah Tree Moment of the Prequels

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthWolvo23, Dec 18, 2011.

  1. DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    I am in awe of your awe, do u want more?
  2. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    zombie writes a book based on existing, published history & quotes, gets it published & he's a hate criminal, but a bunch of obvious visual motifs are analysed to death & it's time for SW to enter the world of obnoxious film theory & destroy a few more forests? Although it's not quite as extreme, this is the crap that almost turned me off movies for good in my second year studying film theory at university. Give me a break.

    Yes, the Tusken Massacre can be seen as a parallel to Luke's 'trial' in the cave on Dagobah, and maybe GL had that roughly in mind when he charted Anakin's own journey in terms of timing, but you're all tearing things to pieces for the very sake of it. With the exception of the fixed story of Ep III, you do know that GL made pretty much everything up as he went along when it came to the PT, right? To the point where he was delivering script pages long after sets, costumes & schedules had been put together? What parallels there are between OT & PT exist simply because of the basic principles of storytelling, there's a heap of fundamentals that caused them to occur without any sort of conscious decisions on GL's part.

    Whatever your own opinion about the PT, I don't think there's much else there to be discovered or analysed, certainly not on this ridiculous level. GL simply wanted these films done to make money, not art. As Rainier Wolfcastle said to Homer Simpson, "What's there is there."
  3. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    If PalpSidious doesn't know everything, then how did he know that Anakin and Padme are married? That Anakin is having visions of Padme dying? Or that Anakin wants to find a way to stop people from dying? Anakin never told him any of those things and yet, PalpSidious somehow knew what's on Anakin's mind by probing his thoughts with the Force. It would make sense that PalpSidious would be sending Anakin those visions and plus, PalpSidious DID know that Mace was going to kick him in the face because he allowed it to happen due to him sensing Anakin coming to his rescue. Losing the duel was the only way PalpSidious could trick Anakin into betraying Mace.


    Yoda and Mace are not mentally weak like Anakin which is why they never have premonitions.
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I disagree with this statement. Lucas made enough money off the OT to sit comfortably for the rest of his life--and that would have been a lot easier than making three prequel films, particularly given the level of crap that he and his family have had to put up with since then.

    If he had made a machismo-Anakin who never loved Padme, if he had made one-dimensionally-perfect Jedi, if there had been no subtlety or grey areas in the prequels whatsoever, I would think he was making them just to make money.

    Generally speaking I agree with your post, but "mentally weak"? Really? That's a rather harsh assessment. Reminds me of the 1950s evaluations of the mentally ill and alcoholics as "weak."

    I think it's at least plausible, if not likely, that Palpatine sent Anakin the visions of Padme dying, but not because he was "weak." Palpatine wanted Anakin on his side due to his strength in the Force, and he probably saw Anakin as ripe pickings due to the trauma he had suffered already in his life. He used that background to his advantage, and did his best to create rifts between Anakin and the Jedi, but even if Anakin had had a normal past, Palps would have wanted him--and sent him visions. Doesn't make Anakin "weak", nor is Luke "weak" because he had the visions of Han and Leia suffering.

    I don't think Palpatine sent Anakin the visions of his mother dying; Anakin obviously told Palpatine later what had happened, and Palpatine, again, used that to his advantage.

    As far as a "Dagobah tree moment" in the prequels, I don't think there was one. I would say the closest came in TCW series with the Mortis trilogy.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Connections in the Naboo civil clergy, according to the ROTS novel.

    Well, one of these proceeds from the other. But you suggest an answer yourself: PalpSidious somehow knew what's on Anakin's mind by probing his thoughts with the Force.

    That is only an assumption, and Lucas' comments in the DVD commentary seem to indicate otherwise.
  6. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Listen here, guy. The Dagobah Tree/Tusken Massacre connection barely scratches the surface of ridiculous.
    Basically, what you're saying is that a poet unintentionally uses alliteration. And that's dull and almost naive.
  7. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    "A hate criminal"???

    Just a slight exaggeration, methinks.

    Your personal disclosure aside (BTW: it sounds like you wasted a lot of time and money, then), this is a discussion board, where things get, y'know, discussed. A book is merely one way of communicating with people and not always the best. On the other hand, I am troubled by your characterization of books you disapprove of as destroying forests. Sounds a bit too anti-intellectual from where I'm sat. Why don't you worry about how much power is created and CO2 sent into the atmosphere every time you scold people over "obvious visual motifs" and "crap" in the future, eh?

    Well, duh. Again, this is a discussion board. None of us even has to be here. It's not like us posting to TFN helps us pay the bills or take out the trash or anything. That said, the only one who appears to be "tearing things to pieces" is you. Why don't you let people be, eh? Different courses for different horses. There are such things as diversity and tolerance for ambiguity. Since you made your history part of the public record, I will just add that university is meant to instill a basic awareness and respect of these things.

    Conscious/unconscious. It doesn't matter which. In art, BOTH are naturally there, at all times. No offence, but you're preaching to the choir. Anyone who believes that Lucas intended everything -- or that intent matters to the exclusion of everything else -- is obviously too mentally stunted to use a computer. Then again (thinks of IMDb), perhaps not. Also, you're not sounding like much of a Star Wars fan, right now...

    OBI-WAN: Let go your conscious self and act on instinct!
    QUI-GON: Feel, don't think. Use your instincts.

    Commercial concerns are one strand of the artistic enterprise. They are not the ONLY one. Nor are they (necessarily) the most prevalant one. An artist does what he or she does for a variety of reasons (a complex web of reasons: subtle and intricate). Your reductive mindset here is as absurd as anyone looking at your beloved zombie's book and thinking he's "a hate criminal". Also, "what's there is there" wouldn't wash with any true scholar or academic, and again, you've been to university, so why are you pimping such nonsense here? "What's there is there" is tautological and is merely the simplest thing to assert. This is not an empirical discipline like science, but it may be philosophical, so if you're going to throw quotations around, I see your Rainier Wolf
  8. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    @ DarthWolvo23

    Keep posting these, I would love to see more. I was thinking of perhaps resurrecting some of the ideas that were on the Visual Storytelling thread, probably a fair few people havent seen them...
  9. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    See, I would've preferred that Sidious found out by reading Anakin's thoughts just like how he found out the rest.


    If Sidious could sense Anakin in danger even though they're 2 planets apart from each other, then he could sense him approaching his office.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He's got Naboo connections, being from Naboo, and probably a lot of other information sources as well.

    That doesn't mean he planned to get kicked in the face. According to Lucas Mace overpowered Palpatine. ( Also, Coruscant and Mustafar are more than 2 planets apart. )
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Mace was the creator of Vaapad, the highest level of lightsaber combat, and taught it to his padawan, Depa Billaba. The two of them were the only members of the Order who were proficient in Vaapad. Mace used Vaapad to defeat Palpatine--and would have succeeded had Anakin not betrayed him.

    As far as the marriage, Palpatine was from Naboo and was Padme's closest advisor when she was Queen. It's not like it would have been hard for him to find out.
  12. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But it seems like a lame way for Sidious to find out about Anakin/Padme's marriage. Its like he forgot how to use the force to read minds.

    By this logic, Palpatine never planned to be kidnapped or for the Jedi to come after him after he tells Anakin that he's Darth Sidious. Look, PalpSidious has been faking at everything throughout the prequals, his defeat against Mace becomes questionable. Not even Lucas himself is sure if Sidious actually lost because he has him kill off 3 Jedi and have Mace on the run but somehow, Mace wins? If I were to believe that Mace is a better fighter than Sidious, then Lucas shouldn't have had Mace bring any jedi along to help him take down Sidious.
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    In that case he didn't need to. Sith having access to a network of spies and informants is a tradition going back to the days of Bane.

    That all-or-nothing theory does not follow. Besides, Lucas said he was trying to destroy Mace.

    No, you've seen what Lucas has to say on the matter, he simply disagrees with you.

    That is what the ROTS novel seems to indicate, and it was edited by Lucas, who removed various things which he found to be objectionable. Mace being a master of Vaapad and the reference to his "unmatched" lightsaber skills made the cut.
  14. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But don't you think that would ruin Sidious's chance of winning Anakin over to his side? He's trying to plant the illusion in Anakin's mind that all the Jedi are evil and having Mace kill off Sidious or vice versa before Anakin shows up does not help Sidious reinforce that illusion. What if Anakin never left the Jedi Temple when that happens? He'd have no reason to become Darth Vader which is why I question the idea that Mace actually defeated PalpSidious.

    It diminishes the emotional impact of Anakin's betrayal and it makes Sidious look like a pathetic twit instead of an evil genius.

    But his declaration that Mace beat Sidious is still unclear because its too coincidental that Anakin shows up at the same time Sidious hits the ground. That is another reason why I question Mace's victory because it makes the scene look like Sidious allowed Mace to win because he sensed Anakin coming to his rescue and he had to appear weak to trick Anakin into betraying Mace. If Lucas didn't have Mace bring any Jedi with him and had Anakin show up at the moment Mace was about to kill Sidious, then, I would buy that Mace actually won the duel.
  15. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Awe me!
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not really. Anakin still needs him. You're forgetting the Padme factor.

    Having Mace kill off Sidious does not reinforce that?

    That doesn't make what Lucas said unclear, it just means you refuse to accept it.

    Mace still has the same lightsaber proficiency regardless of how many Jedi he brings with him.
  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Why does there have to be a Dagobah Tree moment in any of the Prequel films?