The "damned fool idealistic crusade".

I can't believe some people still don't know what OB1 meant by that.

I have a pretty good theory.

OK, so Shmi is freed and married by Lars sometime between TPM and AOTC. She goes to live on the homestead, and overtime thinks of Clieggs son and his girlfriend as her own kids. She tells the story of Ani and how he was freed. She told them how he left to follow his dream to become a Jedi. That's the "fool idealistic crusade"! Owen really doesn't approve of him doing this. He thinks Ani should have stayed and gone on with his quiet slave's life instead of selfishly leaving his mother (whom Owen has grown to love) to an uncertain fate to go out into the corrupt galaxy which Owen thinks simple people have no business being involved in. OK fastforward to the latter half of AOTC. Ani all of a sudden pops up on their doorstep with a ship, a senator, and two driods demanding to see his mother. Owen is less than extatic to see him. "We had a feeling you'd show up someday" he says. That could be thought of as a good or bad response. I think Owen thinks that Ani really has no right to see his mother after the way he just up and left. Then Ani goes off to find his mother and returns with her body. Owen is astonished. A posse of 30 went out after her and only 4 came back, but a single man returned with her body! Owen starts thinking this guy means business, and that much power can't lead to anything good. OK fast forward 3 years later. Some Jedi associated with Ani comes and dumps Anakin's infant sun on their doorstep. He tells the whole story of Anakin's terrible transformation to Owen and Beru and about how Luke must stay on Tatooine until he is grown in order to be safe from Palpatine. Owen agrees to take Luke in and raise him like a son. Obi-Wan says he was Anakin's Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, but if any Imperials come by asking who came around, Owen should refer to him as "Ben". Obi-Wan asks Owen to please give baby Luke Anakin's saber when he is of age, but Owen says no because he doesn't want Luke to run off (selfishly, Owen thinks) and do the same thing Ani did all those years ago only to become what Ani became.

That's painfully obvious to me.

 

Ani all of a sudden pops up on their doorstep with a ship, a senator, and two driods demanding to see his mother. Owen is less than extatic to see him. "We had a feeling you'd show up someday" he says. That could be thought of as a good or bad response. I think Owen thinks that Ani really has no right to see his mother after the way he just up and left. Then Ani goes off to find his mother and returns with her body. Owen is astonished. A posse of 30 went out after her and only 4 came back, but a single man returned with her body! Owen starts thinking this guy means business, and that much power can't lead to anything good. OK fast forward 3 years later. Some Jedi associated with Ani comes and dumps Anakin's infant sun on their doorstep.


For some reason, I like the ring of all that. If you're looking at things from Owen's perspective, Anakin appears to be reckless and that could come from his alligence to the Jedi Order in his eyes. Nice post.

 

Where was the part about Owen feeling Anakin "shouldn't have gotten involved?" It didn't look like there was much protesting in the two days he met his step brother.

 

I assume that was Owen's hindsight after finding out what happened to Anakin.

 

I thought that the 'shouldn't have gotten involved' refered to Luke who, to the best of my knowledge, has only been shown with Owen in ANH.

 

Where was the part about Owen feeling Anakin "shouldn't have gotten involved?" It didn't look like there was much protesting in the two days he met his step brother.

Obi Wan has no idea what happened between Anakin/Owen in AotC, so i don't think his words should be taken too literally at this point (unless RotS proves Kenobi right).

- O_F

 

Lucas, through the wonders of cutting-edge CG, will go in and erase all references to this in ANH.

 

I'm not sure what the confusion is about here.

"BEN: I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have
this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He
feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic
crusade like your father did."

Obi Wan is referring to Anakin becoming a Jedi. There is no actual crusade. It is a rhetorical device used by Obi Wan to characterize Owen's views on Jedi, the Force, and anything that isn't dirt... er... moisture farming.

 

Darth Mimic, wisdom has served you well.

 

Anakin's crusade was to become a Jedi to free all the slaves...which didn't happen. That's the point. From Owen's point of view, it was a lost cause which no one should bother getting involved in. He didn't want Luke getting mixed up in all the stuff that Ani did and become corrupt like Ani did over good intentions. That's why he refused to give Luke Ani's saber because then he'd have to tell Luke the truth about his father which would no doubt cause Luke to run off and learn more about him and/or follow in his footsteps.

However, I don't believe that Ani gave OB1 his saber in ROTS to give to Luke (or to Ani at that point, his unborn daughter). I think he just bended the truth so that Luke would be motivated to get off his ass and help purge the galaxy of evil, and motivate Vader to come back to the light and fulfill the prophecy as Anakin again. I think Anakin and Padme will day dream about having a quiet life on Naboo with their child and Ani could teach the child the ways of the Force, though. It just won't be a direct "my child will have my saber and be a Jedi" sort of thing.

I don't think what OB1 says in ANH is without merit and a point. It should stay. It is true.

 

Obi Wan has no idea what happened between Anakin/Owen in AotC, so i don't think his words should be taken too literally at this point (unless RotS proves Kenobi right).

So Kenobi is more of a liar than before. Wonderful.

 

So Kenobi is more of a liar than before. Wonderful.

Actually he's rather consistant with his "point of view" adage

 

ie, yes, he's a liar.

 

I suppose the crusade could also be the Clone Wars, seeing as how Anakin up and leaves Owen and company to find Obiwan without so much as a "thanks for the blue milk." Then the next time they hear of him (assuming things go as expected in ROTS) is when Obiwan comes back to say, "yeah, it seems training Anakin wasn't such a hot idea seeing as how he's a genocidal cyborg now, so you better watch after his kid. Oh, I'll be back to train little Luke later. I really think I've got the hang of it now."

The theory of the crusade being Anakin leaving as a child is highly possible, but you never know. It could be the Clone Wars.

 

I just fail to see where Owen doesn't hold with Anakin's "ideals," if Owen thinks Anakin should have gotten involved, even if he cares and why he'd see Obi-wan as responsible since it was Padme that dragged Anakin not Ol' Ben. Ben didn't make Anakin a Jedi, he was already one when he showed up to the homestead, and like I said, he didn't seem to protest Anakin's leaving or have a clue what was going on in the first place.

 

"Ben didn't make Anakin a Jedi, he was already one when he showed up to the homestead, and like I said, he didn't seem to protest Anakin's leaving or have a clue what was going on in the first place."

First, Ben trained Anakin. He told Yoda in TPM that he would train Anakin with or without the council's approval. So yes, Obi Wan is responsible for Anakin being a Jedi.

Second, why does Owen have to have a speech saying he disapproves of anything? During AotC, the Jedi are still a powerful organization, and the Clone Wars haven't begun. There hasn't really been an idealistic crusade for Anakin and Obi Wan to go on until they fight in the Clone Wars. And look how it turns out.

 

Second, why does Owen have to have a speech saying he disapproves of anything?

He doesn't have to give a five-minute monologue, but some indication of tension between him and Anakin would have been nice to see. If the "crusade" was Anakin going off to rescue Obi-Wan, and if Owen did indeed disapprove, why not drop in a couple of lines from Owen imploring Anakin not to go?

 

"If the "crusade" was Anakin going off to rescue Obi-Wan, and if Owen did indeed disapprove, why not drop in a couple of lines from Owen imploring Anakin not to go?"

I don't think there is an actual crusade. Again, it is just a rhetorical device that Obi Wan uses to describe how Owen feels about Jedi in general.

But if it were something specific, I think it would be the Clone Wars and not the rescue mission. After all, the rescue mission is very specific and not necessarily idealistic. The Clone Wars, on the other hand, seem to be a fight about ideology (Separatists vs. Republic). So, if Obi Wan's reference is to the Clone Wars, then we can't see Owen disapprove of it, as the Clone Wars haven't yet begun. This all ties in with the lie Owen told Luke about what Anakin did during the Clone Wars.

 

I have to side with Darth_Mimic on this one.


I really like the whole: Obi Wan talking from Owen's point of view.

 

First, Ben trained Anakin. He told Yoda in TPM that he would train Anakin with or without the council's approval. So yes, Obi Wan is responsible for Anakin being a Jedi.

Actually, it was Qui-gon who initiated Anakin as a Jedi, Ben was fulfilling a promise to his master, not acting on his own initiative, so that's really irrelevent. Ben wasn't the one that scooped Anakin out of Tatooine and put all these ideas of Jedihood into his head, so I don't see a reason for Owen to hold such anamosity since he didn't see any of it or even know how it happened.

Second, why does Owen have to have a speech saying he disapproves of anything? During AotC, the Jedi are still a powerful organization, and the Clone Wars haven't begun. There hasn't really been an idealistic crusade for Anakin and Obi Wan to go on until they fight in the Clone Wars. And look how it turns out.

Nobody said anything about a speech. For the most part, I agree on that point. There was no crusade for them to go off on. Sanctuary Moon pretty much did my answering for me. Brilliant, as always, Sanct; brilliant as always.

I don't think there is an actual crusade. Again, it is just a rhetorical device that Obi Wan uses to describe how Owen feels about Jedi in general.

But if it were something specific, I think it would be the Clone Wars and not the rescue mission. After all, the rescue mission is very specific and not necessarily idealistic. The Clone Wars, on the other hand, seem to be a fight about ideology (Separatists vs. Republic). So, if Obi Wan's reference is to the Clone Wars, then we can't see Owen disapprove of it, as the Clone Wars haven't yet begun. This all ties in with the lie Owen told Luke about what Anakin did during the Clone Wars.

So the consensus seems to be that Obi-wan is more of a liar now than he was before...

 

"it was Qui-gon who initiated Anakin as a Jedi, Ben was fulfilling a promise to his master, not acting on his own initiative, so that's really irrelevent."

Qui Gonn didn't do anything to actually train Anakin as a Jedi. All he did was take Anakin on a mission. Obi Wan, for whatever reason, was the one who actually trained Anakin.

And I'm still not sure how you come to the conclusion that Obi Wan is lying to Luke. Owen doesn't want Luke to follow Ben. Owen characterizes Ben as a 'crazy old man' and tries to have the droids memories erased rather than have Luke leave Tatooine. Ben is right about Owen.

Edit: There couldn't be any tension between Anakin and Owen about a crusade at this point as any crusade you refer to has not taken place in AotC. Unless you mean the 'Anakin is a Jedi' crusade. By this point in time, it's pretty hard for Owen to tell Anakin he should give that up.

 

"it was Qui-gon who initiated Anakin as a Jedi, Ben was fulfilling a promise to his master, not acting on his own initiative, so that's really irrelevent."

Qui Gonn didn't do anything to actually train Anakin as a Jedi. All he did was take Anakin on a mission. Obi Wan, for whatever reason, was the one who actually trained Anakin.

That doesn't change what I said, which was Obi-wan not being the one who took Anakin from Tatooine.

And I'm still not sure how you come to the conclusion that Obi Wan is lying to Luke. Owen doesn't want Luke to follow Ben. Owen characterizes Ben as a 'crazy old man' and tries to have the droids memories erased rather than have Luke leave Tatooine. Ben is right about Owen.

Where in the Prequels, where we get to know Owen, do we see him disagreeing with Anakin's ideals, feeling Anakin shouldn't have gotten involved, and wanting him to stay on the farm? The Owen who characterizes Ben as the "crazy old man" is the Owen of ANH, but Obi-wan was recalling a period before Luke, which is basically the period of the PT. We don't see WHERE Owen gets that resentment from, we don't see what Obi-wan told Luke, thus making him a liar.

Edit: There couldn't be any tension between Anakin and Owen about a crusade at this point as any crusade you refer to has not taken place in AotC. Unless you mean the 'Anakin is a Jedi' crusade. By this point in time, it's pretty hard for Owen to tell Anakin he should give that up.

That's what I'm saying, there was no crusade so to speak, there was nothing for Owen to disagree with, thus Obi-wan was lying about Owen having a resentment about Anakin being a Jedi.

 

"That doesn't change what I said, which was Obi-wan not being the one who took Anakin from Tatooine."

Qui Gonn took Anakin from Tatooine. But leaving Tatooine isn't the same as becoming a Jedi. Obi Wan is responsible for his becoming a Jedi. As a matter of fact, the last words Qui Gonn heard from the council on the matter of Anakin are "the boy will not be trained".

"Where in the Prequels, where we get to know Owen, do we see him disagreeing with Anakin's ideals, feeling Anakin shouldn't have gotten involved, and wanting him to stay on the farm?"

We haven't seen any discussion between Anakin and Owen of substance. But by the time we see Owen in ANH, he has moved from being a genial young man with a girlfriend to a bitter old crank who lies to Luke about his father. Owen's had 20+ years to develop his opinions on Anakin; there is no reason why he should feel badly towards Anakin on their first meeting.

"We don't see WHERE Owen gets that resentment from, we don't see what Obi-wan told Luke, thus making him a liar."

We see Anakin turn into Vader. Lucas has said in print that Anakin turns to Vader because he tries to do something heroic. In other words... Vader is on a damn fool idealistic crusade. Owen has 23 years to learn to hate Vader.

"That's what I'm saying, there was no crusade so to speak, there was nothing for Owen to disagree with, thus Obi-wan was lying about Owen having a resentment about Anakin being a Jedi."

No, the 'crusade' is more a characterization of how Owen feels about Jedi in general. Obi Wan is talking about Owen's dislike of Jedi and general scorn for noble causes.

 

Qui Gonn took Anakin from Tatooine. But leaving Tatooine isn't the same as becoming a Jedi. Obi Wan is responsible for his becoming a Jedi. As a matter of fact, the last words Qui Gonn heard from the council on the matter of Anakin are "the boy will not be trained".

Yes, Obi-wan trained Anakin, but at the request of who?

We haven't seen any discussion between Anakin and Owen of substance. But by the time we see Owen in ANH, he has moved from being a genial young man with a girlfriend to a bitter old crank who lies to Luke about his father. Owen's had 20+ years to develop his opinions on Anakin; there is no reason why he should feel badly towards Anakin on their first meeting.

Exactly, there is no sound reason shown at all.

We see Anakin turn into Vader. Lucas has said in print that Anakin turns to Vader because he tries to do something heroic. In other words... Vader is on a damn fool idealistic crusade. Owen has 23 years to learn to hate Vader.

"That's what I'm saying, there was no crusade so to speak, there was nothing for Owen to disagree with, thus Obi-wan was lying about Owen having a resentment about Anakin being a Jedi."

No, the 'crusade' is more a characterization of how Owen feels about Jedi in general. Obi Wan is talking about Owen's dislike of Jedi and general scorn for noble causes.

So Obi-wan is putting words in Owen's mouth, assuming thoughts Owen might have had, and having Owen say things he never said or expressed to "characterize" him?

 

"So Obi-wan is putting words in Owen's mouth, assuming thoughts Owen might have had, and having Owen say things he never said or expressed to "characterize" him?"

He's not 'putting words' in anyone's mouth. Obi Wan is just giving us his opinion of Owen's opinion.

As for never having expressed an opinion on this topic... Watch Owen in ANH. You see just what he thinks of Obi Wan, Anakin, Jedi, and idealistic crusades. And that opinion of his is formed over time, not just after Owen's first meeting of Anakin in AotC.