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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Amph ITT...I'm Batman (Discussion)

Discussion in 'Community' started by Import_Jedi, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. Darth_Invidious

    Darth_Invidious Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 21, 1999
    None. Perhaps only on some technical categories, as usual, but no chance of any major nomination considering some of the competition it's facing.

    And consider this particular version of Batman as over. The franchise will be inevitably rebooted in the near future, and they'll possibly recast everyone.
     
  2. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    That's not what "character development" means, and it's about as meaningful as saying a movie had no plot. Which is to say not at all.

    Wrong. The child in the pit wasn't pretending to be anyone else. That's only a case of the film "pretending" ( in a "lies by omission" sense ) that the child was someone other than Talia/Miranda. Which brings us back to the central problem: the film hid something from you, and in so doing provoked enmity. Your problem is with pretense itself.

    Damn, I thought maybe this was a new rant. I remember this passage. I've always wondered why it stops at two MUCHes. MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better movie is MUCH, MUCH better hyperbole!
     
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  3. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    What "character" did the child have? What attributes? What personality traits? What hopes and what dreams? What strengths and what weaknesses? She was friends with a big weirdo and made a real big jump one time? That counts as character now? The child was nothing but a generic "innocent."
     
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  4. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    My explanation? Popcorn break. Or bathroom break. Or eating popcorn in the bathroom, or something. I don't know.

    To become a world-class oboe player, and to join the Peace Corps. Seriously? Did you fall asleep?

    Strengths: turns into giant green ragemonster... no, that's not it. Weaknesses: vulnerable to crashing.
     
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  5. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Well very good. You've established that you think we're all stupid. Since the answer is so painfully obvious, though, would you mind going ahead and giving it to us? What is the character of the little girl?
     
  6. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    What are the hopes and dreams of someone trying to get out of a pit?

    I thought this was explained in the film. The girl is Talia, who hopes to do... something.

    Now let me try, I think I got the hang of this.

    Describe Qui-Gon in one word!

    I forgot to mention her scar which just so happens to be the same shape as the LOS brand from BB.
     
  7. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    If it was explained in the film, surely it's not too much trouble for you to summarize for us again? What really defines this girl as an individual human being?
     
  8. AAAAAH

    AAAAAH Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2012
    her stubbly head, soft features, and incredible jumping ability.
     
  9. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Then there's the whole being Ra's al Ghul's daughter thing, wanting to destroy Gotham, etc.

    One of those things is actually fairly rare among the stubbly-headed.
     
  10. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    You seem to be having a great deal of difficulty using your words, for something that is supposedly so self-evident.

    EDIT: Really, this isn't some kind of trick question, and there's no way it really even can be. Just explain how you see her character as having been established in the film. What are you scared of?
     
  11. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Remember 12 Monkeys, where the kid was Bruce Willis? It's kind of like that.
     
  12. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    No, it isn't. Because for the preceding two hours, Bruce Willis wasn't trying to be anyone other than Bruce Willis.
     
  13. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Other than Arnold Pettibone.

    And again, Talia wasn't pretending to be anyone else in the pit. The movie was hiding something from you. It was pretending to be a movie that wasn't hiding something from you.

    What are the hopes and dreams of someone trying to get out of a pit? What are the hopes and dreams of someone hoping to destroy Gotham? Why doesn't Nolan answer questions like these?

    And what's with all this "midi-chlorians" mumbo jumbo? So now the Force is just some bugs in your bloodstream?
     
  14. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    You'll have to explain the 12 Monkeys reference, as I don't recall any "Arnold Pettibone" at all.

    Further, you're not really making much of a point. We got a series of clips of a child inside of a prison that were never more than a few second contiguously or more than five minutes cumulatively. We know she was trying to escape. That's not a character. That's a state of being and a temporal want. We know as much about a good number of Bane's henchmen as we do about Talia, by this definition. Frankly, we probably knew more about the farmer slated for execution in Batman Begins than we do about Talia.
     
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  15. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Now you gotta add all the Miranda scenes. I'm not sure if that gets us to the cutoff, because you've made up this imaginary rule yourself.

    Thank you, Crocodile Dundee.
     
  16. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Why would I add "Miranda" scenes when, as we've just discussed at some length over the course of today, she was pretending to be someone else at that point?
     
  17. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Because, as we've discussed at some length, Miranda is Talia. They are the same person. "Pretending to be someone else" as an excuse to negate content is just more invention of imaginary rules to back up the first imaginary rule. It's getting increasingly desperate and absurd.
     
  18. Bacon164

    Bacon164 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2005
    They should remake Return of the Jedi. But this time Leia should remain disguised as Boushh until the Death Star explodes. Wouldn't make much of a difference, would it? Boushh is Leia the entire time!
     
  19. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    "Your life is about to change. This is astounding criticism. Read ALL of it." -Damon Lindelof
     
  20. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    Clearly, all the well-reasoned arguments have driven Arawn mad. Someone bring the nets.
     
  21. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Does anyone realize how royally screwed Gotham City is at the end of this movie?

    --The poor and the criminal class murdered a good number of the wealthy. Do you honestly think that the survivors would hang around after Bats saves the day? More to the point, even if they did remain, would they harbor Thomas Wayne's altuistic ethos, or have a serious axe to grind with the lower classes? (RESULT: Ayn Rand strikes back.)

    --Now that Jim Gordon and Harvey Dent have been exposed as frauds, the only figure who comes out of the situation clean is Batman. So in essence, instead of trusting public officials, the citizenry will come to idolize a masked vigilante. (RESULT: About a thousand wackos running around in masks, firing off machine guns.)

    --The new official Batman is a rookie cop who has not been trained by a secret society of ninjas. (RESULT: Robin will die very quickly.)




    I hate this movie. I hate myself for anticipating this movie. And I kinda hate Ledger for overdosing and making this movie inevitable.
     
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  22. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Your entire defense of the film is little better than "just... because, alright?" and yet you're getting unreasonably flustered. Interesting.
     
  23. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Oh, and thanks to Nolan, I'm confronted with yet another morally dubious blockbuster message.


    RETURN OF THE JEDI: Even war criminals can go to Heaven, so long as they save their own kids.

    THE MATRIX: If the brainwashed masses stand in the way of your revolution, you are justified in murdering them. Especially with automatic weapons.

    THE DARK KNIGHT RISES: You either die a hero, or you live long enough to flee and bang your criminal girlfriend.
     
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  24. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2002
    I'm not quite sure why or even how anyone could even defend Talia's portrayal in this film. It should be obvious that Nolan sacrificed a decent character portrayal for the sake of an unnecessary plot twist.

    Miranda could've been revealed as Talia much earlier and the film would have flowed better. Or, heck, they could have given us scenes in which Talia is actually Talia and her secret is only hidden from Bruce (ie. not the audience). The audience might actually have cared more about her if we had seen more of her being Talia, more of her hopes, sorrow, turmoil, etc.

    Hell, one of Talia's strongest plot points in the Batman universe is the conflict inside of her between her love for her father and Bruce. The film's writers missed that completely. They gave us someone with the name Talia al'Ghul, sure, but they didn't actually give us Talia.

    They could have written a Talia who the audience knew was faking a Miranda identity. They could have written her as wanting to honor her father yet torn at the same time by an unexpected fondness/love for her father's enemy (ie. Batman).

    By the time of any reveal, Bruce himself might find himself similarly torn by the Batman's need for justice and his own sympathy for Talia's plight (orphaned child desperate for vengeance).

    There was so much potential for Talia, and it wasn't even flirted with. They could have run parallels between Bruce and Talia. They could have given their struggle heart. Instead, Talia is a cold monster and that's that. "I could never forgive my father...until you killed him." Really? That's the only glimpse of Talia's inner self that we get? The character of Talia al'Ghul was done a tremendous disservice by this film.

    Since watching TAS as a child, I was a huge fan of the Bruce/Talia romance, and I was gravely disappointed by this film's waste of a decent character. The Nolans have done justice with almost every other character they've given screen time, but they really dropped the ball here.
     
  25. Boba_Fett_2001

    Boba_Fett_2001 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2000
    As I much as I (*gasp*) really liked the movie I can agree the Miranda/Talia thing could have been handled better. But I don't get why everyone acts like it completely ruins the movie.