Discussion in 'Community' started by Import_Jedi, Oct 27, 2010.
Oh yes. Agreed.
First of all, you probably shouldn't tell people they don't 'get' the character just because they don't agree with your viewpoint.
Throughout ALL of The Dark Knight, Bruce is looking for a way out of being Batman. He wants, so badly, to be able to tell Rachel that Batman is no longer necessary, that Harvey Dent can do what Batman can't. It's really only the confluence of the Joker/Harvey/Rachel's Death/Alfred's lie that's keeping him to it. He's reluctant throughout the movie. He wants to be with Rachel, and he's willing to give up being Batman. Rachel means that much to him. But after he avenges her death, and is framed for everything else Two-Face did, he takes the blame and goes into hiding because he's not needed. The police are doing the best job they possibly can (while also kind of making a lite police state, but that's a separate issue.), and they're getting results. And as we saw in the Dark Knight Rises, as soon as the police saw Batman, they went after him instead of the violent criminal. I think Batman was somewhat active immediately after TDK, but as soon as he saw how much the police were after and hateful of him, he decided to give it up. HOWEVER, he still remained to his core, Batman. He still worked on the Batcave, and as soon as any sign of trouble came up was right back in the saddle.
Also, I'd attribute some of the malaise to there not being a villain nearly as interesting as the Joker around. Sure, Batman's all about getting rid of criminals and all that, but you've gotta think after you've locked up half the mob and a man who regularly threatened large swathes of people, thiefs and robbers are kind of small potatoes, and more what the cops should be taking care of. Which they were doing.
tl;dr, Batman and Bruce Wayne are significantly different in Nolan's films than they are in the comics, and if you didn't pick that up from TDK, then it's no surprise that it jarred you in TDKR.
Lots of things are theoretically possible, but that doesn't mean they actually happen. Does Smith know good Star Wars when he sees it?
Not everyone resorts to laughable strawmen which don't hold up when one actually thinks about them. Or as Michael Caine once said, come back to reality.
I get Batman fine and I have seen and read stories with different kinds of Batman. I am open to the idea that Batman can be done in more ways than one.
The comcis have done him in a number of ways, Nolan have done him in yet another. The strength of the Batman character is, to me, that he can be done in several ways. He is not this rigid character that can only ever be one way and one way only.
In BB Bruce starts out angry and at first he wants revenge but he is cheated of that. Then he tries to understand the criminal mind by becoming a vagabond and being involved with some robberies. When R'as finds him he is lost. He has great anger but lacks purpose and direction.
R'as molds and sharpens him but Bruce still rejects his way and refuses to become a killer.
When he returns to Gotham he has a goal, to bring the city back, and to that end he creates the Batman. Bruce as a character grows and changes throughout the movie, what you describe is a far more static and unchanging character and to me, far less interesting.
BB showed the journey of Bruce into becoming Batman and yes it is more than the cowl but Bruce isn't Batman at the start and it is clear, to me at least, that this isn't something he wants to spend the rest of his life doing.
Batman in the comics is sometimes the way you describe him and that perhaps explains your dislike of Rises, you demand that Nolans Batman be exactly like the comics version and when he isn't, you dislike it.
But as others have said, TDK has as a fairly major plot point that Bruce is trying to stop being Batman. So you should dislike TDK as well.
Bruce wants out, he wants to be with Rachel but as long as Gotham is threatened he won't. But after TDK it seems that Gotham has been spared major attacks. Much of the organised crime is in jail, the police can finally do their job properly. Batman is not as needed anymore. He still has an interest and he still wants to do good. Hence his efforts into Fusion power. If it had worked then this would have been a major boon, not just to Gotham but to the world. A newer, cleaner source of energy. He put in moth-ball when he learned that this reactor could be turned into a weapon but he didn't destroy it. So he still had hope that it could be modified so that it couldn't be used for destructive ends.
In closing I like Rises and both of Nolans other Batman films because I find them to be very good movies, with good acting, interesting characters and story and I think all three films hold together very well. And to me, the message of the third film is very hopefull, Bruce really made Batman into a symbol, a symbol that others find inspiration in. A symbol of courage and determination, to make a stand against injustice. He created something larger than himself, that will live on after his death.
Bye for now.
Not gonna happen. TDK is too popular, so trolls don't see it as a worthwhile "target-rich environment".
You have to understand - Talia is Talia no matter what she wears. When she's going by the name Miranda, she's still 100% switched on and assessing things, setting up plans, manipulating enemies and infiltrating the resistance. There's more to being Talia than a name. If you don't get this, you don't get Talia and that's why you'll hate Rises.
What if Talia had dementia and forgot that she was supposed to be Miranda, so she introduced herself to Bruce as Talia Al-Ghul? And then she had a mental breakdown because she didn't know who she actually was supposed to be?
This is actually an excellent example. Bruce Wayne is always Batman, because they are the same person. But when he's waltzing around hotel lobbies, restaurants, and yachts with a half dozen models on his arm, the way he's behaving doesn't give us any insight into who Batman/Wayne is. Why? Because he is pretending to be something he's not in order to trick those around him and disguise his true nature. So that information is unreliable in regards to figuring out his true character and motivations. In the same way, Miranda is always really Talia. But in the scenes where she is Miranda, she's not acting like herself anymore than Bruce in playboy mode is. She is pretending in order to trick the world in general and Bruce Wayne in specific. So none of that information is really reliable, because she is specifically avoiding acting like her real self, sharing her true thoughts, and responding to people as she wants to respond. Except that whereas we know what Bruce Wayne is really like, we have little to no idea what Talia truly is.
Who's this "we"? You have little to no idea what Talia truly is, presumably because the film broke your imaginary rules and didn't invest the proper amount of time explaining it to you. You apparently require information to be repeated ad nauseam in order to accept it, and you don't like things being hidden from you, but don't try and drag everyone else into the theater of insecurity and its imaginary rules.
Well, that's odd. Does that sound like something Miranda would do? Does the willingness to trick the world in general and Bruce Wayne in specific say anything about her true character and motivations?
Again, knowing that someone is lying about something doesn't really tell you what the truth there hiding is. Nor does it particularly say much of anything else, as almost everyone is willing to lie or conceal important information under some circumstance. In this film series alone Alfred, Bruce, Harvey, Gordon, and Fox have all done the same. Let alone all the villains. Yet no one would claim that this makes all these characters the same. It's pretty terrible as a point of insight. So she's not Honest Abe. Does that constitute a fully fleshed out character to you? I had let this drop, but we can always go back and have you answer those questions, if you're so confident and ready. I'd be delighted to hear your thoughts at any time.
Unless you only know they're lying because you know what the truth "there" hiding is. Homonym much? Again, we know this; you seemingly don't ( or are pretending not to know, as a pointless attempt to prop up a stance ).
Arawn have you noticed Wocky elaborates on his viewpoint and you, between indignant sniffles, basically reply with "Is NOT!"?
Are you incapable of articulating your argument? If so, reply with more time-wasting BS to this post and we'll know you're either a troll or vastly our of your league.
I never notice the things going on in your fantasy world. Try reading some more. You can do it!
Well I suspect then the meds you're on need to be cut back or upped, Arawn, because to date your answer to Wocky's questions about Talia have "duh, it's self evident, but I'm not going to tell you even though I totally could".
Which is an elaborate ruse for a child but for an apparent adult it just isn't convincing.
Shall I requote his questions for you to purposefully avoid answering yet again.
Or, will you admit to trolling*?
(* Not answering them is as good as admitting you're trolling).
Have you figured out how Wayne got back to Gotham yet?
Or are your figuring skills on the same level as the accuracy of your suspecting abilities?
Thank you for confirming you are a troll, Arawn.
I'll take that as a no.
I'd thought Wayne's malaise in TDKR was brought on by a combination of Rachel's death and, perhaps more importantly, the fact that he had deliberately sacrificed what he thinks is a character he has created but is instead his true self, and turned him into something wicked, something to be despised. Which in turn solves the various conundrums he faces at the beginning of TDK, but as it's built on a lie (which has been Nolan's thematic through-line since The Prestige, Inception inclusive), it has to be a false dawn. And then you get the deconstruction and self re-evaluation of Wayne in the third film, with an insidious lie replaced with a "good" lie.
I couldn't help noticing on another recent thread how many people have received or gotten themselves this movie for Xmas (myself included), even though we claim to hate many crucial parts of it and have spent the best part of this thread dissecting it mercilessly. I wonder why...
Oh, I know: because it's the goddam Batman!
That's true. We all dislike what was done in the movie, but we can't just not complete our collections!
No it's because it's the movie you deserve, but not the movie you need...oh never mind.
Uhhuh. I hated X-Men 3 for all the obvious reasons. I had the first two movies but ask me if I went ahead and bought that DVD to complete that particular collection. Try again.
I didn't get Raimi's Spider-Man Trilogy because of 3 and I don't have the Indiana Jones 4 movie set because of KOTCS.
For all its faults though, TDKRises is not as bad as either of those movies.
It's the same reason why people who spent over a decade bashing TPM on a daily basis paid to see it in 3D. Hypocrisy.