Discussion in 'Community' started by Import_Jedi, Oct 27, 2010.
Ok but you still have no explained why Rises is a good film.
1. An awesome plane in the Bat
2. Tom Hardy as Bane.
3. The Miranda/Talia reveal was superbly done.
4. The Alfred cafe scene
5.The final scene where the Dark Knight Rises
Personally I think the appeal is simple: it goes back to the beginning and yet goes further again in providing a perspective on its protagonist, in so far as it progressively strips back all the cosmetic items that we think "makes" Batman what he is until we have something that is final and absolute. Which in turn on a story level gives us a classic "true" re-invigoration of the hero. I can't think of many other genre pieces that would do this, although truth be told by this point Nolan has abandoned genre and was clearly aiming at doing more of a Fritz Lang-style epic. That's fair enough, since the leap from the first film to the second also represented something of a genre change, to go with the aesthetic shift and the upgrade in society that the characters deal in.
What's more, I do quite like that the villain is ultimately a manifestation of what Bruce would have become had he not had the influence of Rachel Dawes, which justifies, to my thinking, why that woman was so special to him.
That and the fact that it is a natural continuation of what Nolan has been doing since The Prestige, except on a larger scale again. No one is making films of this genuine size anymore. And it was an unparalleled large-scale cinematic experience, really.
How was Bane what Bruce would have become without Rachel? I'm especially confused by this statement because I was never quite sure what Bane was supposed to be to begin with, but clearly you have an opinion on both points, so I'd like to hear your perspective.
No, Talia is the manifestation of what Bruce would have become, since her sole drive is vengeance and nothing else. The whole gambit is about destroying Gotham to punish Bruce, whereas the true League of Ra's was about destroying Gotham to prove a point to the rest of the world. The whole film, or indeed the whole trilogy is all about masks, be it on the level of personality, physical appearance, or intent, and in the case of Bane and Talia, their public intent is masking what is ultimately a petty quest for revenge against Batman. The trigger for their whole plan is getting Bruce away from Gotham and then torture him with its sacking. Talia tries and fails, and then when Bane actually succeeds it's at the same moment that his master plan kicks into gear, breaking into Wayne Tower.
Ultimately Talia saves her reveal very specifically for Bruce, she wants Bruce to suffer above all else... hell, even her opinion of her father changes just because Bruce polishes him off. Having pursued that path, she winds up broken, pathetic, and alone - in a scene where the reverse shot is Bruce surrounded by his friends and allies.
Where Rachel comes into it is the scene in Batman Begins where she admonishes Bruce for wanting to assassinate Joe Chill - I'd argue this is the inciting incident for Bruce becoming Batman in Nolan's universe moreso than just the death of his parents, and I'd say that Nolan agrees somewhat as he chooses to mimic the blocking to some degree for Bruce and Blake's second meeting in The Dark Knight Rises. Bruce throwing the gun into the river is also fairly critical, as Blake's journey touches upon the moment twice - the first is a distaste for bloodshed, the second being a partial rejection of one father figure (Gordon's) philosophies, when he ditches the badge on the bridge.
Bane is a different kind of mirror for Bruce, one who takes the showmanship in an even more literal direction and adds murderous intent to his ruthlessness (to an extreme, he kills at will in a Vaderesque manner), and is very much the more Nolan-style villain of the film, since one of his key obsessions since Cobb in his debut, Following, seems to be characters who can exert noticeable and extreme influence on others over the course of a single narrative (it's no wonder he was a big fan of Alfredson's Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, and I suspect he would have dug The Master).
1) Erm. Except for the autopilot. Hey guys? Did I mention the autopilot doesn't work. Yeah. No autopilot. I'm just going to establish a fault in case I need to create lulz later. When the autopilot works. Because you know. Everyone thought it was broken. No autopilot.
3) If by superbly, you meant forsaking any real investment for a cheap "a ha!" moment, then yes.
4) So how long did Bruce spend trawling cafes in Florence looking for Alfred? That bit, which was meant to be symbolic, was just ham fisted.
5) You mean... the dark Robin rises? Because he knew. He saw the look. The look that says, "Bruce Wayne is Batman".
OK, I finally saw this one yesterday thanks to netflix.
Well, the only thing I can say is that at least it was better than Captain America and Thor.
Anne Hathaway (normally not on my list of prize actors) was the only thing carrying this movie.
Given how totally different these "interpretations" of the characters are from the comic version, why even use the names of the established characters?
Movie Bane is super-strong because... ??? The society of shadows trained him? And the mask keeps him from feeling the pain/damage that was done to him? Actually, for the most part it just makes his lines unintelligible. And he's now not hispanic? And no Venom steroid? Yeah, why even call him Bane? It isn't. If anything, this could have been done better with Vandal Savage instead.
Ra's is supposed to be pronounced "Raysh". Where are the Lazarus Pits? Oh, they aren't there. And now he's a ninja master. Uh, yeah, that isn't Ra'z.
Talia--pretty obvious, and reduced to a shallow, uninteresting villain.
The Alfred/cafe bit--totally lame, ham-fisted, and saccharine.
Robin Blake? uh.
Christian Bale--has he ever played anything other than emotionally stunted or emotionally devoid characters? Kurt Russel usually does, but has taken enough roles that prove he actually can act. Haven't seen anything like that from Bale since... Reign of Fire?
Liam Neeson--also utterly wasted.
Michael Caine is a great actor, but he has always been totally wrong for Alfred. His teary goodbye speech was beyond the beyond.
Motorcycle flipping wheels for stability--totally destroyed any suspension of disbelief. Not with the guns mounted on the side like that.
Bruce Wayne recovers from a compound spinal injury in 3 months thanks to a traction machine made of rope?
Um, climbing out of the pit... That leap. How about getting a little more slack in the rope, then looping it across the gap like a lasso? Oh, is that too practical/not "spiritual growth" enough?
"The Bat" VTOL thing: ugly and unimpressive. Just didn't buy it.
Batman doesn't like guns, but puts them on every vehicle he makes?
So many scenes in this movie were shoddy, second-rate copies from James Bond movies.
Really, the only thing I liked in this movie was the line about the super-rich taking too much of the pie and not leaving enough crumbs for the rest of the world.
Reading some people's defense of this movie makes me think they are reading way, way, wayyyyyy too much into what is essentially a piss-poor comic-book movie adaptation.
raysh fines is a good actor. i really like raysh fines.
OK, but this is a criticism of Batman Begins; TDKR was just being consistent with it.
OK, but this is a criticism of The Dark Knight; TDKR was just being consistent with it.
He doesn't use hand held firearms. Artillery is another story.
And besides the only instance where the weapons were used on a human being was when Catwoman shot Bane with the batpod canon. Batman only shot objects and vehicles.
Worth noting the 1989 Batman had a minigun mounted in the Batwing and Brownings in the Batmobile, but I can't think of many or any comics versions of the car with artillery.
So, you know... no.
Well I only said artillery as I'm not sure for the term for 'tank like weapon' which he seems to have on the batpod.
I'd have to say that shooting the truck point-blank was pretty much tantamount to using weapons on a human being.
OK but it doesn't actually matter since it's not something Batman would do.
Well he has no problems using weapons on human beings. He just doesn't use hand held firearms on human beings.
Of course it is. In the Justice League cartoon set in the same universe as the animated series Batman used the batplane for air to air combat. And as you said the 89 movie had heavily armed vehicles.
Batman doesn't like guns, handheld guns. Weaponry on his vehicles is another matter.
Would you really have wanted to see a faithful adaptation of the comic book character? Do you have any idea how absurd and stupid that would have been?
Oh ok GenAntilles. I'm sorry; I assumed you had some familiarity with Batman. I see I was wrong now.
Well I'm unfamiliar with your version which denies evidence which conflicts with it, but the actual Batman character I'm rather familiar with. Burton Batman used machine guns on his vehicles. Animated Batman used Batplane to engage in dogfights and used it to make bombing runs. Nolan Batman had a canon on the batpod and similar type weaponry on the Bat. And on top of that comic Batman used a gun to shoot Darkseid.
So yeah Batman doesn't like guns, but he's not an idiot.
TDKR was the 2nd movie year right beside The Hobbit IMO
Doesn't the Bat-tank in The Dark Knight Returns have a cannon and guns that fire rubber bullets? Plus, IIRC, the original Batman comics featured him killing.
Again, IIRC, the anti-gun/anti-killing ideals were put forth by newer writers sympathetic to those ideas.
General, how much Batman have you read?
Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Haunted Knight, Knightfall, No Man's Land, Hush, Under the Red Hood, Batman and Son, the Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul, Private Casebook, The Black Glove, Heart of Hush, and Batman R.I.P.
Those are all the Batman books I own, I'm not counting all the other ones he appears in with other characters though.
Not as stupid (and boring) as this movie was? Bane is probably my least favorite of the Batman villains, but if you are gonna do it, do it right.
I'd like to see at least 1 faithful adaptation of any character. Closest was probably Jim Gordon.
OK so you have the Loeb/Sale books, but you're still talking about the Bat with guns?!