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Books The Darth Bane trilogy

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Revanfan1, Oct 13, 2013.

  1. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    First off, I'd like to say that I am very biased towards this series–it was reading this that got me fully into Star Wars fandom. I always liked Star Wars and had played a few video games (Clone Wars, KOTOR 2, Battlefront, and Jedi Outcast), so I had past EU experience. But I had been more into Lord of the Rings and Transformers than Star Wars from about age nine to fourteen. I read these books right after my 14th birthday, somewhat on a whim, and fell in love with the EU.

    But interestingly, I have seen a lot of negative comments toward this series...it confused me a bit, honestly, because I found them great (the third one was iffy but still better than, say, Apocalypse). I especially loved the Battle of Ruusan, Lord Hoth, and Farfalla in the first book, and Johun Othone in the second book. The entire Duel of Tython had me geeking out the whole time I read it. I was sad when all the Jedi ended up dying, though. But I really did love-love-love the trilogy.

    So, where do the negative comments stem from? I know Karpyshyn is a bit of a "simple" writer, and Revan and Annihilation are generally looked down on, but I thought he did a great job with the Bane trilogy. So why does this series get a bad rap?
     
  2. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Oh boy, this should be interesting. :cool: As a major lover of the trilogy and a guy who thinks Darth Bane's one of (if not the) greatest Sith Lords of all time i'm interested to see where this thread goes.
     
  3. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    I get the impression that it's partly because he overwrote Jedi vs. Sith, which some people really like. I'm not the one to elaborate on that, as I really didn't like JVS.
     
  4. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    I got Jedi vs. Sith after I read the Bane books and I was overwhelmed by how much they lined up, actually. It's like the difference between the Lord of the Rings novels and the movies (with JVS being the books). The books/JVS were campy and old-fashioned fantasy-mystical, while the movies/Bane trilogy were more "modern". For example, bows vs. blasters, lightsabers for everyone vs. most using spears and ancient-looking swords, etc. And then there's the total lack of Farfalla-has-goat-legs. Interestingly, the first time I read the Bane books, I obviously didn't know Farfalla had goat legs, since Karpyshyn didn't write about it, but I pictured Farfalla (and this is weird) as Rahm Kota with long, blonde hair. (Someone needs to photoshop that, right now.)
     
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  5. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    As I recall, Karpyshyn's novels are damaging to both KJA's Bane of the Sith and Jedi vs Sith, and presumably the established backstory in the Essential Chronology, but I'd have to look into that. His prose and storytelling are simplistic and there's no depth to his novels. And then there's stuff like this:
    Which I just find really silly, both for the poor prose and the logic behind it.

    Since the narrative is from Bane's perspective, it leaves me thinking that Bane is really a dumb Sith Lord, and that in formulating the Rule of Two he pulled a Homer.
    [​IMG]

    This isn't entirely Karpyshyn's fault -- even though the Episode I novelization established that Bane realized that betrayal was the way of the Sith and this was best mitigated by only having two, the Brotherhood of Darkness was already depicted in sources prior to Path of Destruction as being pretty well coordinated and only destroyed through Bane's own ambition and belief that the dark side of the Force is a limited resource because he had trouble healing himself from being poisoned. It wasn't his fault, the dark side was diluted! So Bane destroys the Brotherhood and institutes the Rule of Two, which is successful because it allows the Sith to keep their eyes on the prize rather than due to dark side dilution -- though I guess you could argue that both are true.

    But when the narrative from Bane's perspective has him thinking about how the Sith aren't healers because they get light side cooties if they heal themselves, I'm struck by this interpretation of Bane as this dark side zealot that shunts logic due to some sort of dark side indoctrination, a man that isn't all that bright.
     
  6. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Part of the problem is that it kinda changed what Bane was at Ruusan. JVS has him as a jaded senior Lord who's been around for ages and is sick of Kaan's drivel.

    Karpy turned him into a young upstart tosspot who just kinda starts telling everyone off because he just clocked KOTOR or some such.

    That and the fact that I just don't have much fondness for the way that Karpy writes. At all. I mean, JVS is probably my favourite SW comic ever, but contradictions aren't a hanging offence: I can enjoy LOE and CW Volume II, for instance.
     
  7. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    To your first point, I acknowledge Karpyshyn is a simplistic and shallow writer, but I still think his Bane books are pretty good. I've never read KJA's Bane of the Sith, so I don't know how it affects it, but as I said, I always fount the differences between the Bane trilogy and Jedi vs. Sith to be almost entirely superficial–blasters and lightsabers vs. bows and broadswords, etc.

    As to the whole "Sith can't heal" thing...well...maybe Karpyshyn should've researched EU a little more (Vader healing himself with the dark side, etc.), but the first time I read ROT, I hadn't read any other EU stories except the TFU novel and maybe one or two NJO books, and really the Sith-can't-heal in ROT lined up well with Starkiller's "dark-side-doesn't-allow-Force-visions" in the TFU novel. I figured that the dark side allowed access to more physically damaging abilities (lightning, etc.) and the light side had more introspective abilities (healing and visions). So at the time it didn't really bother me. I do understand your point now, having more experience with EU, but it's still not enough to mar the nostalgia and freshness I feel when reading the trilogy (especially the first and second books as I did not read the third for about a year after I finished the first two).

    I did notice the jaded senior vs. junior lord thing in JVS when I read it the first time. Having played KOTOR before reading the trilogy, I quite enjoyed all the references to the series (I practically squee-ed in delight when Hoth used Force stasis).

    As I said, Karpyshyn's writing is admittedly very simple and shallow, but I enjoyed it as a 14-year-old and I still do now. I too also enjoy LOE and CW V2.
     
  8. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Since he's basically a walking tank though, does he need to be?
     
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  9. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 28, 2009
    Paging Havac, who manages to both eloquently and hilariously ream Karpyshyn & Bane on demand. :p

    Path of Destruction was serviceable but the other two were really bad. I'd cite two primary reasons for their failure: Bane isn't an altogether compelling protagonist and the story suffers from the same LOL FORCE SMASH wankery that many see in The Force Unleashed.
     
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  10. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    The Dark Side's deficiency, or perceived deficiency with Force Healing, lines up with most other ideas about the Dark Side. Vader specifically notes that the Dark Side isn't inclined towards the healing arts, due to the joy that one can feel from it, which drives the Dark Side away. It also lines up with the general corruption of the body many Darksiders experience. Not to say that there aren't special cases such as Cade's Dark Transfer and Sion, but there's enough evidence in my opinion that Bane thinking such thoughts isn't unwarranted.
     
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  11. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    He was suggested to be in The Phantom Menace novelization. Of all the Sith, Darth Bane "had adopted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way -- old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance."

    Darth Bane had Sidious' cunning and Vader's physical prowess. Karpyshyn invented the idea that Bane is a dumb brute.

    There's more dark side healing techniques in literary canon than there are light side healing techiques, whether it be Cade, Sion, Plagueis' midi-chlorian manipulation, even essence transfer. Being a Sith is all about exaltation of the self, and being able to heal oneself, especially in unnatural ways, is pure dark side.
     
  12. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    That's basically how I felt reading ROT. POD made him seem more Thrawn-style-genius, while ROT made him a Darth Bandon style Juggernaut with no brains. But given the orbalisk armor feeding his rage, I didn't mind it.

    This all goes back to me being 14 at the time, but I loved all the LOL FORCE SMASH stuff. I know now it's kind of silly but I still don't mind it, especially in POD when there's an all-out Jedi vs. Sith (no pun intended) war on, and I didn't mind it in ROT, especially during the Duel on Tython, since the Jedi were doing all they could to beat a pretty much invincible Sith Lord, while Bane and Zannah were doing their best to keep their secret, hence fighting with everything they had.
     
  13. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 28, 2009
    Ha, different strokes and all that! I won't fault you for liking the "exaggerated" Force.
     
  14. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    I think he was only a dumb brute in ROT, and then only because the orbalisks weren't allowing him to think straight. He was pretty intelligent and cunning in POD and DOE.

    Yeah, I can see it getting a little ridiculous in FOTJ (especially Apocalypse, though I did like Ben's frigate-damaging Force push he used against Abeloth, but again, that was during a time of dire need), but in the Bane trilogy it really didn't stand out as over-the-top to me.
     
  15. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    DigitalMessiah More specialized/unnatural Dark Side healing techniques maybe. Light Side healing is just that, basic Force Healing of the body without anything else added. The Dark Side healing always comes about through some unnatural cost, that the user had to go to great lengths to gain. And just because that particular user was willing to do so, and even found out how to do so at all doesn't meantAnd there are again examples of the Dark Side having problems with basic healing. Its for these reasons, along with each character being different, that I don't find it ridiculous for Bane to be unable to heal himself with the Dark Side at all. Not all Sith are the same, so it makes sense for some to have different beliefs and ideas about the Dark Side, that too is backed by canon.
     
  16. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Joy isn't antithetical to the dark side, either. Lucas says, "The dark side is pleasure, biological, temporary and easy to achieve." The fundamental divide is selfish and selfless, and healing oneself is probably skirting the border, with it being unnatural healing e.g. Sion or Cade firmly on the dark side, while healing others is light.

    What other examples are there, besides Vader having problems in SOTE?

    The whole thing reeks of "healing is a light side ability, I don't put points in those, I'm a Sith!" Which is another problem which people have with Karpyshyn's writing. He writes prose around game mechanics.
     
  17. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    That was the entire issue Vader had in Shadows of the Empire. It's not necessarily joy, but the source of it. Vader was happy he was healing himself, and that happiness caused the effect to deteriorate. Really the entire idea of the Dark Side slowly wasting the physical body away to nothing could be used as evidence, with no Darksider in history who suffered from the effect ever being able to stop it. And in the majority of cases, as I pointed out before, the Dark Side constantly falls short of actual full healing, and instead provides a twisted replica such as Sion. Even Bane was able to spur himself on for a time when poisoned, yet not fully heal himself.
     
  18. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Darth Plagueis stopped it. Then he fell victim to the evils of alcohol.

    And Bane couldn't heal himself because the dark side was "diluted." But that reminds me of how silly it is in JVS he created the Rule of Two because he wasn't strong enough to heal himself; then in the novel Rule of Two he thinks how he'll get light side cooties if he heals himself.
     
  19. Unbowed.Unbent.Unbroken

    Unbowed.Unbent.Unbroken Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Dec 27, 2012
    I guess it boils down to different authors having different opinions. As is the case with much of the EU, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Or doesn't care.(Or contradicts it just out of spite.:p)

    In James Luceno's Plagueis novel for instance the Muun heals himself to a degree,and in fact he considers healing to be quite easy:
    "Calling on the Force to mend ruptured arteries, torn muscle, or broken bone was no more difficult than levitating slabs of stone".

    As for the Bane trilogy, I thought it fairly entertaining for what it was, which is the literary equivalent of a popcorn flick.
     
  20. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    No doubt. I look at these contradicting accounts as expressing the opinions of the characters; that Bane thinks his inability to heal himself is due to being a Sith is just showing his narrow minded nature. Though it does conflict with his attempt to heal himself in JVS from Kaan's poison. Forgot how Karpyshyn wrote it, but I recall the idea existed. He may well have contradicted himself there.
     
  21. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    Plagueis being able to do so is true, but is really no different from different Darksiders viewing the Force in different ways, and therefore using it in different ways, depending on the author that's writing the story. I actually agree with Plagueis, that a Force User of any alignment can access any ability, but that however is his personal belief and doesn't have to be accepted by everyone throughout the EU, just like the idea of Dark vs Light doesn't have to be accepted. There are contradicting ideas and I think the mythos as a whole is better for it.
     
  22. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    The problem for me isn't the contradicting ideas. It's what it says about Darth Bane that those are his ideas about the Force. Before Karpyshyn, he was depicted as being a proto-Sidious. Now... he's been characterized in this thread as a walking tank. I don't find that all too interesting.
     
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  23. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    I really liked the Darth Bane trilogy, BUT I would change the holocron in PoD, I would make it a Rakatan rather then Revan, cause when I first read it I was a Revan fanboy, and loved KOTOR, but even then I was like 'really?', besides I think a Rakatan would work better, aside from taken down Revan a notch, it would also cement the Rakatan as the greatest masters of the Darkside (since they did rule over most of the galaxy for longer then the Republic)
     
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  24. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    To each his own. I don't think it says anything negative about him at all. And I still see him as a Proto-Sidious/Vader actually, with their being hints of both in the character.

    AusStig the shoehorning of Revan into the story's probably my biggest complaint with it.
     
  25. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Interestingly, in the New Essential Guide to Characters, it's stated that Bane's inspiration for the Rule of Two originated from Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma.

    It's not surprising that this became Darth Revan and Darth Malak in Karpyshyn's novel.
     
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