The Dawn of a Mary Sue.. The Bria Tharen HATERS club.

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by jewlmc, Aug 7, 2002.

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  1. SOLO_FOREVERMORE Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Thanks for the welcome, Menioleah! :) You are so right. But I think even if I had read the HST books first and then seen the movies, I think I still would have found that Crispin went totally overboard with the character of Bria Tharen. But that, of course, is my opinion.

    Han didn't look, act or seem devastated by the lost of Bria in ANH. He totally flirted with Leia the whole time and you could feel the attraction the two them had for one another.

    If he knew that Bria died trying to help the rebellion or what not and he was still in love with her, don't you think that he would have really chewed Leia out abut how his "true" love died because of her precious rebellion? Would he have asked Luke what he thought about the two of them being together?
    Yeah, he was really thinking about Bria in that scene. I think not! :)
  2. Adi_Gallia_9 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2001
    star 5
    Welcome Solo_Forevermore! :)

    While there is a group of fans who read the HST before seeing the movie, they are a minority, thankfully. The majority of SW fans easily prefers Han and Leia together. Additionally, of those fans who read the HST after seeing the movies, but still like bria, most of them think H/L is correct. It's only a select few that Crispin has brainwashed thankfully. ;)

    And the thing that kills me is that bria fans say Han is grieving in ANH! I bring up how he flirts with Leia and they say he's grieving 'off-screen.' That's ridiculous! Where do they get that and how would they know? "Do you think a princess and a guy like me?" He's really torn up over bria, isn't he? :p He's already moved on and forgotten all about bria.
  3. MenionLeah Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2002
    I agree, Solo and Adi Gallia. Han looks very carefree and nonchalant during the events of ANH for someone who supposedly just lost the love of his life. He's already flirting with Leia mere days after Bria's death. Had the Bria thing actually happened, he'd have treated Leia far colder than he did in ANH.

    I have a question for the members of this club: Why do you dislike Bria Tharen? Is it the character of her, or the idea of a character like her?

    For me, it is the idea that bothers me - It was fairly obvious Lucas planned from the beginning to have Han find his first true friends and love in Luke and Leia, and Bria undermines his hero's journey of turning from a selfish mercenary to a selfless hero in love. To make him hung up on a girl he was with at 19 for ten years takes, and explain his cynical behavior in ANH as a result of being burned by love takes that away.

    Others dislike her for what she did to Han, ie. broke his heart into a million pieces, not once but twice, stabbed him in the back, ruined his reputation with his friends. I don't fall in this category, I thought her character was well-developed enough, if not a tad on the dull side in TPS, but it was not her character that bugged me so much as her concept.

    I also dislike the tired notion that those who dislike her must naively believe that Han had never had a girlfriend before ANH, and/or that Han was celibate before meeting Leia. No Han fan I know presumes this, it is not the simple concept of having a girlfriend that bothers some, but a love of his life introduced who also happens to start the Rebellion, steal the Death Star Plans, convince Bail to join the Rebellion, etc. If Han/Leia fans had a problem with Han having previous girlfriends, you would imagine there would be some disdain for his other paramours, such as Xaverri, Salla, Jessa, Fiolla, etc. but there is none.
  4. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I've never encountered any Han fan, be they a fan of Crispin's books or not, who thinks Han was celibate or had no girlfriends prior to the events of ANH. I mean, we've all seen him, right? ;)

    Plus, a guy as worldly (or should I say galaxy-ly) as he clearly is would have piled up a few exes. And most of the people I've encountered who didn't care for Briarf have no problem whatsoever with other past girlfriends the EU gave him, even Xaverri, who Han says he loved in "Crystal Star," and may have stayed with if she hadn't left. I remember one H/L fan saying they liked Xaverri and looked forward to reading more about her in the HST--and were disappointed when she got something like three pages.

    I don't hate Briarf for herself. I don't even hate the idea of her that much--Han's first girlfriend. That doesn't bother me. He was 19, hadn't become hardened and cynical yet, and he fell for a girl who was pretty and seemed nice. She then dumped him and broke his heart. I can see that happening.

    What annoys me about Briarf is how she was maximized over three books, and the stuff about starting the Rebellion, getting Bail Organa involved, and basically bowling over everyone she meets, even people who you'd think would be experienced and/or not easily swayed by a pretty face, simply grates on the nerves. It's pure Mary Sue-ism of the worst kind.

    I also dislike Briarf because of the doubt her character has created in the minds of some people, who now question whether Leia was the love of Han's life, or even if he'd have fallen for her if Briarf hadn't died. I don't see anyone saying that about Xaverri, who Han specifically says he may have ended up with. Nor about Salla, or any of the other girlfriends the EU gave him.

    Before the EUniks who are watching this thread and pretending we have no reasons for disliking Briarf start accusing us of being "oversensitive," they should ask themselves how they'd feel if (since most of them seem to be huge Mara fans) they saw thread after thread speculating on Callista being Luke's true love, and saying Callista and Luke were a better couple than L/M, or if Callista was Briarf-ized over three books about Luke.

    But wait, they're wailing. We don't have a problem with Gaeriel! Some of us even like her!

    Yeah, and we don't have a problem with Xaverri or Salla. Some of us even like them.
  5. Jedi15 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 4
    I liked Xaverri in The Crystal Star. I would've liked to have seen more of her. Has she been in any books other than the Han Solo Trilogy?

    Before the EUniks who are watching this thread and pretending we have no reasons for disliking Briarf start accusing us of being "oversensitive,"

    Tired, clichéd EUnik accusation #1: when people dare to bash a popular EU character, they are accused of having no actual reasons for hating that particular character.

    they should ask themselves how they'd feel if (since most of them seem to be huge Mara fans) they saw thread after thread speculating on Callista being Luke's true love, and saying Callista and Luke were a better couple than L/M, or if Callista was Briarf-ized over three books about Luke.

    *sigh* If only that were true. I seem to be one of the 4 or 5 people who actually liked Callista, and wished Luke had ended up with her instead of Mara Jade. But I digress.

    But wait, they're wailing. We don't have a problem with Gaeriel! Some of us even like her!

    I loved Gaeriel. She was my favorite EU character, and still is. And I'm still mad that they killed her off.

    Yeah, and we don't have a problem with Xaverri or Salla. Some of us even like them.

    Can't comment on Salla, but I liked Xaverri, and if it's true that she was downplayed in the HST in favor of Briarf, then that's very sad indeed.
  6. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I wasn't crazy about Callista, but I certainly would've preferred Luke ending up with her instead of Mara.

    It's been pointed out before on another board, but if Crispin wanted to "explain Han's mistrust of women" (although of course I think he distrusted everyone) by showing a woman dumping and hurting him, she could've used Xaverri. It was established in "Crystal Star" that Han loved her and she left him.

    Instead, Xaverri is downplayed to a minor relationship which can never compare to Han's love for the Great Briarf.
  7. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    Plus, their entire relationship spanned about a MONTH, or TWO, at most, in actuality.

    From the time he rescued her, they spent maybe a week as lovers, then she left. Then they get back, and they're together what-another week?

    Lame, lame LAME!!!

    I have to say though, Salla wasn't my favorite, but I didn't hate her.

  8. Adi_Gallia_9 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2001
    star 5
    Good points, Shelley. It was obvious Han had plenty of 'experience' before ANH. Jenny was proof of that. And I never minded Salla. She seemed like the type of person a young Han would have a relationship with. Xaverri was ok; though I've never liked the Crystal Star, I always felt bad that the Empire killed her husband and kids.

    But here's where we get to my reason for hating bria, which is similar to Shelley's. As I've said many times before, the Han Solo trilogy seemed more like the bria tharen trilogy to me. I could have dealt with her appearance in one book, but to then bring her back again and again... There were scenes of her in HG pining after Han. There was her death scene in RD, there were her scenes with Winter, etc, etc, etc. Wouldn't we all have preferred that space to be used for Han instead? I'd have much rather learned about Han's parents, for example instead. Crispin is a talented writer, she could have written that. But she chose to add more and more detail to her pet character. And that is in essence a Mary Sue.
  9. Dantana Skywalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2002
    star 5
    Okay, someone please explain to me what a Mary Sue is? I'm confused.

    Dana
  10. Jedi15 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 4
    You can find a definition of a Mary Sue on Page 2 of this thread, 12th post (it'll be written by me). :)
  11. Dantana Skywalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2002
    star 5
    Thanks. So, basically, Corran Horn would be the male equivalent?

    Dana
  12. Jedi15 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 4
    Definitely. And Grand Admiral Thrawn, and Talon Karrde, and Garm Bel Iblis, and Xizor, and Anakin Solo, and Prince Isolder...
  13. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    Anakin isnt, and I wouldn't say Thrawn iss (Hes just an Uber Character). Talon is though I'd say
  14. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    Why DIDN'T she include Han's family? We were soooo close to finding out. I was so disappointed.

    Or wouldn't Lucas allow it?

    That's the ONLY thing I can figure out. Ms. Crispin, if you're watching this thread...

  15. SOLO_FOREVERMORE Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Guinastasia, I think I might have somewhat plausible theory about not much information being given about Han's parents and background.

    Ok, years and years ago me and my kid brother used to read the comic book, X-MEN.
    Anyone who has ever read the comic knew that one of the central characters, Wolverine, was always shrouded in mystery. Know one new where he came from, his background and so forth. Well of course he became one of the more popular characters of the series and eventually had his own comic(s) and seemed to paired up with every marvel comic character there was. Eventually, especially after the X-MEN movie was released, more people wanted to know about Woverine's background(you knew his name was Logan, he had his skeleton laced with steel that couldn't be broken but that was pretty much it).

    So about a year or so ago Marvel decided to finally release a limited series that would shed some light on Woverine's background(mostly to keep future screenwriters from writing it and screwing it up).

    I haven't read the comic in years, but Logan was always my favorite character much like Han is. My point being that sometimes it better to just leave a mysterious character just as he is: mysterious. Having Han shrouded in mystery makes him all the more sexy and devil-may-care(IMHO)and maybe Lucas prefers to leave it that way because he doesn't want some writer to come along and totally screw Han's character with their own Mary Sue's....er stu's fantasies.

    But that's just my IMHO :)
  16. Adi_Gallia_9 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2001
    star 5
    I don't see why Crispin would have been stopped from telling about Han's past. It's obviously not in the prequels. For example, the EU can't say anything about Padmé because of the prequels. But I wouldn't see why there would be a ban against Han.

    Or maybe there is another series in the future that will revel all those details...

    As for keeping Han mysterious, I wouldn't think that had anything to do with it either. Keeping Han mysterious would have prevented the HST from happening at all; we did learn alot about him from 19 on. Additionally, Boba Fett was even more of an enigma but no one had any qualms of telling his entire story.
  17. MenionLeah Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Exactly, that is why I do not understand why Bria fans often bring up the tedious argument that those who dislike Bria must have believed that Han had no girlfriends before Leia. I have yet to hear a Han/Leia fans say such a thing.

    It is also claimed by some that Bria was a plot device to make Han miserable and explain why he was burned by a woman (although I never saw such evidence in the films, evidently Lucas did not plan on it either), yet then why focus so extensively on her, and not on, say, Xaverri? The idea of Bria is not necessary to make Han burned by a woman; Xaverri could have supplied that easily. Thus, the argument of Bria being a plot device is weak and unsupported.

    Guinastasia, good point about Han and Bria's relationship spanning a short period of time. They were not together for very long in TPS, it does not make sense that someone such as Han Solo would pine away for a woman he knew when he was 19 and only with for a few months. That spans the time of an average teenage romance.
  18. Doo-Kimmie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2001
    star 1
    Way to call a bluff, MenionLeah! I've heard that "Bria is a plot device to explain Han's distrust of women" and I never bought it either.
  19. eeyore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 3
    MenionLeah, I know what you mean about Bria fans constantly bringing up that "H/L fans believed Han was a celibate monk before meeting Leia" or "Bria was not a Mary Sue, she was a plot device to explain why Han was so heartbroken in ANH". I don't buy either, for the reasons you listed above.

    SoloForeverMore, Wolverine was always my favorite X-Men! When the movie came out, I was thinking that if a modern day ANH were to be made, Anna Paquin and Hugh Jackman would have made the perfect Han and Leia! :)

    I agree with you that Han's past should remain mostly a mystery - part of the problem I have with the EU is that they feel a need to explore every corner of the OT character's life.

    Guinastasia, I think I remember reading that LFL wouldn't allow Crispin to write about Han's parents. I agree with Adi . . . The Han Solo Trilogy ironically had more Bria space in it than Han space, especially in Rebel Dawn. There was far too much focused on her, considering that she was never mentioned in any of the movies or books up until that point.
  20. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    All the explanations for Briarf I've seen are weak or don't ring true.

    "She explained why Han was so heartbroken in ANH."
    Han wasn't heartbroken in ANH.

    "She explained why he was distrustful of women."
    Han was distrustful of everyone, not just women.

    "She explained why he was distrustful of female Rebel leaders."
    Again, Han was distrustful of everyone, not just women, and not just female Rebel leaders.

    "She explained why he waited three years to pursue Leia--he was hurt by love."
    Han was flirting with Leia soon after meeting her (the wink at the medal ceremony). As for waiting three years to pursue her--to me, the hallway argument scene in ESB shows that Han had begun pursuing her some time before, but she resisted.

    "She explained why Han hated the Rebellion."
    Han didn't hate the Rebellion. He just had little use for it, and considered it a foolish waste. At first, anyway. Obviously, he changed his mind in the three-year gap between ANH and ESB. Meeting Luke and Leia helped him find his conscience again.

    Briarf was totally unnecessary. Another EU character had already been established as a former love of Han's who'd walked out on him: Xaverri. If Crispin insisted on "explaining why Han was distrustful of women," Xaverri was right there.

    Also, there was no need whatsoever to maximize Briarf over three books, nor to insert her into so many important events of the OT (formation of the Rebellion, theft of the Death Star plans).
  21. Kirana Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 1999
    star 2
    Ooh! Ooh! Can I join? Pretty please? :D
  22. eeyore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 3
    Right on Shelley, I fail to see how people can honestly believe Han was hurt by love in ANH and that's why he waited three years before putting the moves on Leia, when both his creator (his CREATOR) have disputed this speculation, and so have the actor when speaking of his portrayal of Han (back when he still liked him ;)).

    Speaking of which, here's something my friend found in an old Bantha Tracks magazine from 1980. Here's the part I think you guys will like ;)

    [Harrison speaking on Han Solo]

    "They [Luke and Leia] change my character. He's basically this incredibly selfish guy who's obsessed with money at the beginning of the saga. Luke goes through a character journey in the movies, but so does Han Solo. Luke trusts him, and believes there's more to him than meets the eye. [Han's] not used to that, and it touches him. Then there's the princess, of course. My character doesn't like her initially, even as he starts falling in love with her soon after they meet. She's the first girl he's ever met to be immune to his charms, and that only makes him want her more. Like a typical woman, it takes her three years to admit what she feels for him, leading up to the events in Episode V. And being in love - actually caring about someone more than himself for the first time in his life - is what changes him the most."
  23. eeyore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 3
    Of course you can join Kirana! What are your reasons for hating Bria?

    I love your signature, by the way :)
  24. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    Although, LEIA convinced him to join the Rebellion-BRIA did not.

    Bria begged him to join, but he refused.

    Leia, on the other hand just said, "Oh, let him go, he's not worth it." Sooo....

    Heh!

    At any rate, I think Bria had potential, but she was just way too annoying. But I DID like her dad. He was cool.
  25. Adi_Gallia_9 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2001
    star 5
    Kirana! Great to see you here! I've been meaning to send you a PM, but I keep forgetting... I'll try to get to it soon. And thanks for dropping by this place.

    Great quote, eeyore. Thanks for posting it. :)

    One of my favorite things to use as a defense against bria is to bring up why Han joined the Rebellion. bria asked him to, and he said no. In Spectre of the Past when he's asked why he joined the Rebellion, he answered, "Leia." Tell me then, which one did he love more? ;)
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