Amph The Day Evil Won: FINAL CRISIS

Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Books and Comics' started by Soontir-Fel, May 26, 2008.

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  1. Yodaminch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 6
    It's garbage and I can see why so many people have been upset lately with the stuff DC is putting out. Secret Invasion I can at least follow. I'll keep reading just to see if it improves, but definitely heavily favoring Secret Invasion right now.
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    It's not that confusing. I've been able to follow along pretty well. It's not difficult to figure out. When Orion killed Darkseid, something unexpected happened and his essence went to Heaven, where he waged war and won. He then returned to Earth, but fell backwards through time as Morrison confirmed. He arrived in the past, prior to "Infinite Crisis". He and his minions were able to take possession of human bodies and he set up a nightclub. He was involved in the events of "Seven Soldiers", while preparing for his full blown return with the birth of the Fifth World. Now the master of the complete Anti-Life Equation, Darkseid will unleash it across the world, giving him total control. Meanwhile, his agent Libra, has tried to recruit the Secret Society into Darkseid's embrace, but Lex has been burned one too many times. As have others and so they are planning to avoid a repeat of before. Meanwhile, Norman Shilo has begun recruiting heroes to help him. Ones who are beneath the notice of the Evil Gods. And Earth's heroes are aware something bad is going on, but are behind the eightball. And Barry Allen returns to help fight against what is coming.

    Okay, now that that is out of the way, DC Nation panel at Wizard World Chicago. Dan DiDio, Gail Simone, Sean McKeever, Jann Jones, Bob Wayne, Tiny Titans writers Art Baltazar and Franco, Ethan Van Sciver, Writer Geoff Johns and Tony Daniel.

    DiDio asked someone in the audience to explain what Final Crisis is about. A few fans tried but struggled, which garnered laughs from both the crowd and the panel.

    "Barry Allen's back," a fan yelled. DiDio polled the audience to see what Flash they liked best. Jay Garrick and Bart Allen didn't win, but Barry Allen and Wally West were both favorites.

    "Martian Manhunter died!" another fan yelled.

    DiDio then asked the panelists what they thought of the death of Martian Manhunter in Final Crisis.

    - McKeever: "Who is that?"
    - Johns: "No comment."
    - Jones: "More Chocos for me."
    - Daniel: "I'm the one guy who's pissed off.
    - Van Sciver: "Now that Tony said that and got applause, I'm outraged!"
    - Wayne (to DiDio): "I thought you could spell Nightwing better than that."
    - Baltazar: "Can we bring him back in Tiny Titans?"
    - Simone: "Good thing I believe in reincarnation."

    DiDio then opened the panel to questions from the fans.

    - With Barry Allen back, does DC have a better plan for what to do with Barry than "what you had for Wally?"

    Van Sciver: "Oh of course."

    DiDio: "Wally will be around. He's part of the Titans team right now, and he'll be part of that team for the foreseeable future."

    - What's the latest on the kids line? Jones: Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam is coming out in July (and will be previewed her on Newsarama early nexst week). "He picks up on a lot of the threads left by Jeff Smith," Jones said. "It really captures the charm of the character," DiDio said.

    - Were copyright issues behind the creative changes to Captain Marvel, Blue Beetle and Captain Atom? DiDio: Blue Beetle and Captain Atom changes were purely creative choices. With Shazam, "we'd like the title character to have the same name as the title of the book. Simple as that," DiDio said.

    - Will there be an Ambush Bug Showcase? Wayne: It is "under consideration."

    - Will Final Crisis become more clear? DiDio: It does become more clear as the story develops. The first three issues set up what's coming. It is the heralding of the Fifth World, and Darkseid twists it for his own needs. "How it affects the other heroes will come out in some of the one-shots and the rest of the series."


    -What is going to happen with The Spectre? DiDio: "He's all over Final Crisis: Revelations." It's all about Crispus Allen and how much he's needed for Final Crisis.

    "And also see Blackest Night," Van Sciver added.

    "And Tiny Titans," Jones laughed.


    - In Blackest Night, did Grant Morrison want Bruce Wayne to be the leader of the Black Lantern Corps? Johns: "Blackest Night's a story we've been working on, and Grant's n
  3. FlareStorm Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    I agree with the confusion. I read it and was like WT*? Then I went and read forums and wiki and read it again and was like...ooooh. Still, I shouldn't have to do that to understand a story, no?

    I admit part of my problem is because I've always thought the New Gods were shallow, "pull a story out of your butt" characters. So I have glossed over them all these years. Guess I'm paying for that now.
  4. Soontir-Fel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    Final Crisis Requiem was really really good. Tomasi should write more things.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Well, he is doing GL Corps. and Nightwing. When J'onn is resurrected, he should be the writer of a monthly series.
  6. Raven Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 6
    I'm not really a fan of GLC at the moment. Really, the difference in quality in terms of both art and writing between GL and GLC is pretty large.


    As for needing to read up to understand Final Crisis: in my opinion, if a reasonable amount isn't made clear in the story itself eventually, without the need for supplementary material, then the story fails at storytelling. If it is made clear later in the story, that's fine. But if the story itself needs to refer to outside sources beyond basic knowledge of the characters in order to make sense, it fails.

    I'm re-reading the recent Marvel cosmic stuff right now, and though the material covered is pretty different, some of the same premises are applying. In those cosmic series, I came in a) not knowing that Nova had ever been off earth, let alone being the equivilent of a Green Landtern (New Warriors was all I knew him from and I didn't read New Warriors except in some Spider-Man crossover way back when) b) Beyond Nova, I knew Galactus and Silver Surfer, and no one else beyond having seen the villain of the piece in Ultimate Fantastic Four. I was able to follow along quite well due to how people were introduced, how material explaining who and what they were was available in the series itself (I didn't even read that until second time through, and I still followed the plot and what was happening.

    With this? Sorry, didn't read Seven Soldiers. Sorry, don't know the Fourth World. At all. And the last time I saw Orion and Darkseid, Orion killed Darkseid. So, I'm a little lost at sea. I read Countdown. Horrible as it was, it's better than this.
  7. Soontir-Fel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    You really have the worst opinions, Raven. You should get that looked at.

    For the main story so far we haven't had to read anything else. All you need to know is that Boss Dark Side is a bad man, there was a war in heaven that evil won, and that very bad things are in the process of happening. It's trying to figure out. It's not especially hard. If you read Seven Soldiers (which everyone should) or know about the Fourth World you can get more for the story, but by no means are they required for the story.
  8. Raven Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 6
    My opinions are always right though. The truth burns. BURNS!
  9. Soontir-Fel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    Really because the art in GLC is great and the story is actually interesting unlike GL which is a story moving at a snails pace and is covering well trodden ground.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Morrison and Didio have said that you don't have to read "Seven Soldiers" to understand "Final Crisis". Nor do you have to have had extensive knowledge of the Fourth World series. "Death Of The New Gods" and their role in "Countdown To Final Crisis" was done mainly as a means of paying tribute to the work of Jack Kirby, since Morrison was going to revamp them, Didio opted to have the classic Kirby series given a send-off.
  11. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    Yeah, I have to echo the "not new reader friendly" aspect to FC so far. I don't follow much DC (Besides Bat crossovers and a couple GL trades, Batman & the Outsiders is the only one I've really read with any regularity) (but I have a decent understanding of the characters) and didn't read Countdown except for the Universe 0 one-shot. The U0 issue seemed pretty clear in that there were 3 or 4 storylines about to occur in FC. But FC is still pretty confusing, not really introducing who or what some key characters are (perhaps intentional in one case, however). About all you can really get is the whole Libra dude representing some big baddie trying to get the villains onboard by granting them a wish ala Martian Manhunter's death. Everything else, especially with the multiverse hourglass and exile subplot, is just put in there with little explaination.
  12. FlareStorm Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    New Gods always confuse everything. Hopefully they stay dead. They are stupid and boring and I hate them.

    Edit: Ditto for Legion of Superheroes
  13. RogueSquadronWingnut Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2002
    star 4
  14. Soontir-Fel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    Oh god. Oh god. When Morrison revamps something, he doesn't pull punches. For the first time I really feel that with the New Gods, where they go the Universe goes. Like they are actual gods. The Black Racer is terrifying.

    And the rest of the issue, from Montoya finding a nazi supergirl, to the freaking Anti-Life equation hitting the internet and damning us all, to Mary Marvel (who I think it was brilliant to show just how far innocence could be twisted and perverted by the Dark Side) was excellent. Even the part where we miss what happens when Anti Life is released, and deal only in the after effects.
  15. Soontir-Fel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    Alright. Which one of your punks got Superman Beyond?

    Ok good. Now tell me what the hell happened
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    I did.

    I'll go one better. Annotations.

    http://www.funnybookbabylon.com/2008/08/28/final-crisis-superman-beyond-1/
  17. YT-2400 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2008
    star 1
    I'm enjoying the FC tie-in minis better than FC.....of course, that may be because I'm more interested in reading those than FC.

    Legion of 3-Worlds is a masterpiece in the making. If Johns doesn't get a Superman & LOSH ongoing title after this (which he has said he would love to write) then Dido is just plain nuts.

    Rogues Revenge is good...brutal, but good. Sometimes one can forget just how ruthless and cold-blooded the Rogues can be, but not after #2.

    I'm just tired of BIG events. I read Identity Crisis which led to Countdown to Infinite Crisis which led to Infinite Crisis which led to 52 which led to Countdown and now to Final Crisis. I think DC should have stepped back after 52, looked at what they had and played in the new sandbox some before launching into this.

    That's why I'm more impressed with Secret Invasion. I usualy don't like Bendis but I have to credit him with this. The execution, the flashbacks that shows the foresight that brought this storyline to this point, it's inspiring and impressive.
  18. Soontir-Fel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    You cannot say you are tired of big events, than cite Secret Invasion as one done right. There are literally a thousand tie ins, and the main story hasn't moved in 4 issues. FC for all intents and purposes, is a tiny crossover. And it's what Morrison's been leading up to for years. I was reading his JLA again, and even then he was talking about the 5th World.
  19. NJOfan215 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 5
    I'm fairly new to dc but i like final crisis.

    What other things has morrison been leading up to this in?
  20. Soontir-Fel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    JLA and Seven Soldiers. It's more about talking about the fifth world than a direct lead ins.
  21. Soontir-Fel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    New interview on 3 with Morrison.

    "Newsarama: Grant, you started the issue with Frankenstein and SHADE - can you explain how you see them and where they work within the larger DCU?

    Grant Morrison: The scene was partly to remind readers that all of DC?s covert agencies are organised under the Checkmate umbrella. I originally created S.H.A.D.E. as a kind of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents for DC - James Bond meets Superman - a covert dirty tricks agency employing man-made superhumans in black ops espionage activities. Frankenstein joined S.H.A.D.E. in issue 3 of his own book and he seemed like a good, strong representative of the shadowy side of the DCU to open with.

    NRAMA: Likewise Renee Montoya - how do you see her fitting into the broader landscape as The Question? Kirby did have faceless agents of justice in OMAC...are you lining things up a little here?

    GM: Definitely. I couldn?t let the connection pass between The Question?s blank ?pseudoderm? mask and the faceless policemen of Jack Kirby?s Global Peace Agency from OMAC. So yes, we are seeing those two concepts being brought into line and the beginnings of DC?s ?World To Come? are being established here.

    As far as how Renee fits into all that, Final Crisis sets her up for a particular role but Greg Rucka has been Montoya?s custodian for some time now and ultimately it?ll be his decision whether or not she accepts it.

    NRAMA: And just so we're clear - that body that Montoya finds - that's the body that formerly housed Darkseid, and that he presumably burned through?

    GM: He?s in the Dark Side Club, sitting in the same spot where we last met him, wearing the same clothes so yes, we are indeed clear!

    NRAMA: The building that Uberfraulein falls through - that's Tower 2 of the new World Trade Center that's been proposed. Was that your idea to put it in there, or JG's?

    GM: I established in The Manhattan Guardian how the DC version of New York City contains a number of buildings and developments which were proposed by architects but never constructed. In DC New York, all those fantasy buildings actually exist - so we have things like Frank Lloyd Wright?s Ellis Island Key, the Lower Manhattan Cultural Center or Hans Hollein?s Chase Manhattan bank design as part of the skyline.

    I suggested JG show some of these buildings in his shot of downtown but I think this particular choice - Norman Foster?s 200 Greenwich Street replacement for the World Trades Center - was his own and works very well in the context.

    NRAMA: To translate Uberfraulein's comments, she mentions the "bleeding heavens" - basically, we're taking that this is the Supergirl from earth-10 as shown in the final pages of 52? And that means that something is ripping up the multiverse?

    GM: The Multiversal structure of parallel worlds is collapsing. Darkseid?s fall has broken the Multiverse basically and he?s pulling everything that exists down with him into Hell, the swine!

    NRAMA: The cave painting that Cave Carson and his team are shown to have found - while we saw it as being inspired by Metron in #1, it also looks like it has a clear component that resembles the scales carried by Libra. Coincidence?

    GM: Until you mentioned it, yes, it was one of the few coincidences in Final Crisis. Now I can only assume yet again that there are no coincidences!

    NRAMA: Explain the bullet trajectory here - Barry was chasing it, and it went into the past where it killed Orion, yet, when Barry and Wally stop, they're in the future?

    GM: As Jay explains on Page 9, when they fail to catch the bullet that?s heading back through time to kill Orion, they must curve back around and start heading home towards the present. The Black Racer is becoming aware of their return on Page 8, panel 2.

    Jay Garrick?s knee gives out and he limps home to the present day, while Barry and Wally, hitting the Speed Force Barrier at light speed, overshoot the present - or so they think - by a few weeks, only to find themselves in a sneak preview of Final Crisis #4 and the new DC universe status quo.

    NRAMA: As a lot of fo
  22. YT-2400 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2008
    star 1
    Pardon me then, for I forgot to mention that I'm not reading SI either. ;)

    Based on other reviews and articles & interviews both about SI and with Bendis that I've read, I am simply more impressed with how Bendis has crafted and built up this story than with Morrison's approach on FC. Maybe it was the hype, maybe not, but I expected FC to burst out of the gates like all get-out. But it didn't.

    This is the third Crisis in what, three, four years? DC needed to calm down, take a deep breath after 52, and play in the new sandbox some before launching into another event that may (or may not) change the entire sandbox again. It's one event right after another and that's wearing down ye ol' wallet.

    I will admit I like the fact that FC is self-contained and not a company-wide crossover. Same with Marvel. SI is a self-contained mini and it's effects on other Marvel titles are showed through other minis instead of interrupting a monthly title's ongoing story arcs. To me, that shows foresight and a new understanding by the publishers.

    I'm worn out over mega-events. I've read all the other previous Crisises and Countdowns of DC so these days, I simply choose not to read FC and spend my mula on other comic fare.

  23. Soontir-Fel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    Anyone wanting to see the anti-life equation in work needs to pick up FC Revelation.

    It's creepy.
  24. Raven Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 6
    I've quite enjoyed Revelation to date. I'm a fan of the new Question, and the series has been well done so far. Except for some non-human looking art - page 1 of issue two being a prime example.
  25. Soontir-Fel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    I like how the mark of Cain is the Omega symbol further setting up the New Gods as actual gods.
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