The Death of Ronald Reagan

As a Finn I'm truly thankful for President Reagan for falling the communism. Although Finland never was really behind the iron curtain, we had so called term of Finlandization, when we couldn't criticize our mightful eastern neighbor. The fall of the USSR made the atmosphere much more free here.

I've always admired Ronnie's wonderful optimism and belief to his own ideology. I appreciate idealism, even if it makes people little naive. Reagan was the greatest statesman of the 20th Century, after Sir Winston Churchill.

 

Well, I don't miss him. I grew up in the 80's and was damned afraid because I thought his missteps would lead our country (and all life on Earth) into a nuclear war.

I do not look back on him with trust, respect, or nostalgia. He was a liar, and took part in some of the biggest rip offs of the American people in history (only to be rivalled by his biggest fan, one George W. Bush) cutting corporate taxes and furthering the gap between rich and poor, extending the alliance between wealth and political power.

In any case, he is dead now. His suffering (that of an old man who lived too long) is finally over, and for that I can be thankful. I just can't wait for this ridiculous weekloong memorial service to be over and the media to get back to doing its job, revealing the current crimes and boffles of the US presidency.

 

I just can't wait for this ridiculous weekloong memorial service to be over and the media to get back to doing its job, revealing the current crimes and boffles of the US presidency.

That's a truly ignorant thing to say. Actually your whole statement was riddled with ignorance. You talked about him like you would talk about a man who had just died in the electric chair.

Quick note to everyone: JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T AGREE WITH SOMEONE DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU CAN'T SHOW SOME RESPECT FOR THEM WHEN THEY ARE GONE.

EDIT: To give you an example: I absolutely hated Bill Clinton, but if he died tonight, I'd probably actually be sad...

 

Ender_Sai

CVN-76 is the USS Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier commsioned just last year, it's the newest aircraft carrier in the fleet. I did some research because of your comment.

 

I've always admired Ronnie's wonderful optimism and belief to his own ideology. I appreciate idealism, even if it makes people little naive. Reagan was the greatest statesman of the 20th Century, after Sir Winston Churchill.

Like hell he was. I hate to kick a man when he just died, but this is a very false claim.

Reagan scared me.

 

Not Even a Hedgehog
The stupidity of Ronald Reagan.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, June 7, 2004, at 10:03 AM PT


Not long ago, I was invited to be the specter at the feast during "Ronald Reagan Appreciation Week" at Wabash College in Indiana. One of my opponents was Dinesh D'Souza: He wasn't the only one who maintained that Reagan had been historically vindicated by the wreckage of the Soviet Union. Some of us on the left had also been very glad indeed to see the end of the Russian empire and the Cold War. But nothing could make me forget what the Reagan years had actually been like.

Ronald Reagan claimed that the Russian language had no word for "freedom." (The word is "svoboda"; it's quite well attested in Russian literature.) Ronald Reagan said that intercontinental ballistic missiles (not that there are any non-ballistic missiles?a corruption of language that isn't his fault) could be recalled once launched. Ronald Reagan said that he sought a "Star Wars" defense only in order to share the technology with the tyrants of the U.S.S.R. Ronald Reagan professed to be annoyed when people called it "Star Wars," even though he had ended his speech on the subject with the lame quip, "May the force be with you." Ronald Reagan used to alarm his Soviet counterparts by saying that surely they'd both unite against an invasion from Mars. Ronald Reagan used to alarm other constituencies by speaking freely about the "End Times" foreshadowed in the Bible. In the Oval Office, Ronald Reagan told Yitzhak Shamir and Simon Wiesenthal, on two separate occasions, that he himself had assisted personally at the liberation of the Nazi death camps.

There was more to Ronald Reagan than that. Reagan announced that apartheid South Africa had "stood beside us in every war we've ever fought," when the South African leadership had been on the other side in the most recent world war. Reagan allowed Alexander Haig to greenlight the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, fired him when that went too far and led to mayhem in Beirut, then ran away from Lebanon altogether when the Marine barracks were bombed, and then unbelievably accused Tip O'Neill and the Democrats of "scuttling." Reagan sold heavy weapons to the Iranian mullahs and lied about it, saying that all the weapons he hadn't sold them (and hadn't traded for hostages in any case) would, all the same, have fit on a small truck. Reagan then diverted the profits of this criminal trade to an illegal war in Nicaragua and lied unceasingly about that, too. Reagan then modestly let his underlings maintain that he was too dense to understand the connection between the two impeachable crimes. He then switched without any apparent strain to a policy of backing Saddam Hussein against Iran. (If Margaret Thatcher's intelligence services had not bugged Oliver North in London and become infuriated because all European nations were boycotting Iran at Reagan's request, we might still not know about this.)
=====================================================================

I mean, I don't want to get flamed here, but I do think it's important if we want to reflect on Reagan's legacy to hear different perspectives.

It is important to remember that even though Reagan, by all acounts, was a great man who accomplished (or presided over?) historic events, Regean was no saintly God, as no POTUS is.

The nature of the job means one has to get their hands dirty.

 

Here is a nice picture of the Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier, testing out its new systems in the open sea:

CVN76

The motto of the USS Ronald Reagan is "Peace through Strength." I think that sums up Reagan's presidency as well.

HERE

And for those who are curious-

SSN23, the last Seawolf class attack submarine that will be built, is named the USS Jimmy Carter. It will be completed in about 6 months.

And possibly the last current generation Supercarrier, CVN-77, is named the USS HW Bush. It should be completed sometime in 2007-2009.

As far as I know, there has never been a USS Nixon..

 

Fear leads anger
Anger leads to hate
Hate leads to suffering

Reagan was a master at dog psychology; Projecting strength to avoid conflict. Peace through superior Armed forces.

He Also promoted optimism & seeing the best in each situation & in the American people. Reagan was also a great orator & able to convey that view to the rest of America. He loved America & everything she was supposed to stand for. It showed. I remember his presidency very well & felt safe knowing that a man of his stature was leading our country. He did what he believed was in the best interest of the American people, & he put his life & the country's welfare in God's hands. He wasn't just a politician, he was a leader. He was a true servant of the people, unlike many politicians in Washington. In my opinion, Reagan was a great man. He will be greatly missed & admired for generations to come. A few of my favorite Ronny Ray-Gun quotes:

"...peace is the highest aspiration of the American People. We will negotiate for it, sacrifice for it, we will never surrender for it, now or EVER."

Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have.

...there is no limit to what a man can do or where he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit.

It's time we asked ourselves if we still know the freedoms intended for us by the Founding Fathers. James Madison said, "We base all our experiments on the capacity of mankind for self-government." This idea that government was beholden to the people, that it had no other source of power, is still the newest, most unique idea in all the long history of man's relation to man. This is the issue of this election: Whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon the American Revolution and confess that a little intellectual elite in a far-distant capital can plan our lives for us better than we can plan them ourselves. (October 27, 1964)


We who live in free market societies believe that growth, prosperity and ultimately human fulfillment, are created from the bottom up, not the government down. Only when the human spirit is allowed to invent and create, only when individuals are given a personal stake in deciding economic policies and benefiting from their success -- only then can societies remain economically alive, dynamic, progressive, and free. Trust the people. This is the one irrefutable lesson of the entire postwar period contradicting the notion that rigid government controls are essential to economic development.

However, our task is far from over. Our friends in the other party will never forgive us for our success, and are doing everything in their power to rewrite history. Listening to the liberals, you'd think that the 1980's were the worst period since the Great Depression, filled with suffering and despair. I don't know about you, but I'm getting awfully tired of the whining voices from the White House these days. They're claiming there was a decade of greed and neglect, but you and I know better than that. We were there. (RNC Annual Gala, Feb. 3, 1994)

Life is one grand, sweet song, so start the music.

When the Lord calls me home, whenever that may be, I will leave with the greatest love for this country of ours and eternal optimism for its future.

- Ronald Reagan

 

Quite a few people have pointed out that under Reagon they feared nuclear war. Thats fair enough but it is important to point out that Reagon himself shared such fears. He didn't have the unshakeable faith in MAD that other conservatives had. His over zealous pushing of the unrealistic 'Star Wars' was not just down to an obsession with the arms race as some seem to believe but partly because of believed that it was a better way to avoid a nuclear war.

 

Reagan helped accelerate the demise of the Soviets and restored a sense of optimism in the Presidency.

He helped control inflation(by urging the fed to tighten).

20 million jobs created during his time in office.

Tax cuts across the board for all taxpayers.

Pushed deregulation of energy and trucking. He also didn't stop deregulation started under Carter(yes...Carter did deregulate).

Did away with the "Fairness Doctrine".

But, his greatest achievement was his restoration of a respectful relationship with the Soviets based on America showing them they were contained and could not keep up with the technological advances of our military.Peace thru strength.

His speech in Berlin("Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!") was one I remember and clearly paved the way for the unification of Gernamy, the demise of the Warsaw Pact, and the pullback of the Soviets from Eastern Europe just two years later.

He also proposed, negotiated, and signed, with Gorbachev, the first comphrehensive nuclear arms reduction treaty.


He was a great, but flawed, president.

He became entangled in the mess in Lebanon ending in the deaths of more than 200 Marines.

He allowed a covert arms for hostage arrangement with Iran.....bypassing the law (the Bowler Amendment)... Iran Contra.

He was unable to control the increase in congressional spending at the same time he supported a 1 trillion dollar military buildup. This led to a large debt.

Still, he restored optimism, faith, and the promise of American greatness and liberty in the face of naysayers and cynics.

Karde, exactly. SDI was really a trump card used by Reagan to draw the Soviets out to serious negotiations in Rekhjavik( I think that's where it was first brought up). He was sincere, but knew that the Soviets would see they could not keep up.

As I pointed out above, his military buildup and genial, but firm manner restored respect from the Soviets, which had been lacking under Ford and Carter.

Also......the president who started to destroy nuclear weapons.

He did the unthinkable......merged left and right tendencies(nulcear disarmament, military buildup respectively) and won.

One of the three greatest presidents of the last century.

 

Among other things, I said:

I just can't wait for this ridiculous weeklong memorial service to be over and the media to get back to doing its job, revealing the current crimes and boffles of the US presidency.

DV81 responded:

That's a truly ignorant thing to say. Actually your whole statement was riddled with ignorance. You talked about him like you would talk about a man who had just died in the electric chair.

_________________________________________________________________________________________


My friend,

Aside from the fact that I will admit to being ignorant about a good many things, my above post had little room for ignorance, as it was a statment of opinion (mostly).

You say I talk about him like someone who just "died in the electric chair". This is highly amusing to me, because you would hear me defend someone in the electric chair much more.

Why?

Simple. Reagan died after a long and happy life (as far as I know), full of success, as it is measured in our society: by power, dominance, and the opportunity to fully assert one's individuality in his or her life.

Folks who "die in the electric chair" do not just "die". They are killed, intentionally, by the hand of another, and I don't really approve of that in any circumstance, with the exception of mercy killing, which is to say euthanasia.

Reagan, on the other hand, was in need of euthanasia (once again, as far as I know). I have known a few folks with alzheimers and it is not really pretty, nor did it appear easy to live with...

"Getting old is for the birds."

-Ruth Naomi Bossard Rush (my grandma, a victim of alzheimers)

JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T AGREE WITH SOMEONE DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU CAN'T SHOW SOME RESPECT FOR THEM WHEN THEY ARE GONE.

I think I actually did say that I am happy that his suffering has ended. If that is not respect for the man's humanity, I don't know what is.

But what I think upset you is that I refused to show repect for his political acts, which, now that I am learning a WHOLE LOT more about them due to the media frenzy slyly rewriting history currently, I detest and regret (vicariously) even more.

To give you an example: I absolutely hated Bill Clinton, but if he died tonight, I'd probably actually be sad...

Of course, Bill is not suffering a terribly debilitating disease or even towards the end of the average human lifespan. Ronnie, was, on the other hand, well past the point at which it becomes (as far as I know) a great burden of spirit to remain in this life.

Your example (I must admit I very much appreciate you giving an example at all) denotes two things to me:

#1 You are viewing the death of Ronald Reagan as a political happening because you agree with his views, not because you care for his humanity or suffering.

#2 You actually show a great deal of selfishness. WOuld you rather he had not died and instead continue to be suffering at this moment? Would you actually wish for someone's continued suffering. I think not, my friend.

It is from a sheer hatred (fear) of death, that the passing of the very elderly is regarded with regret.


Guinastasia:

I hate to kick a man when he just died...

Is it better to kick him when he's alive? I don't get it!

 

Selected quotes on Reagan:

"He knows less about the budget than any president in my lifetime. He can't even carry on a conversation about the budger. It's an absolute and utter disgrace." -Tip O'Neill, 1981

This is the guy who claimed that trees cause more pollution than automobiles, for crying out loud. He said you could recall submarine torpedos after they had been launched. His administration blamed the victims when four US churchwomen were raped and murdered by the Salvadoran military. (I don't know any pistol packing nuns, do you?)

He supported terrorists in Central America, cozied up to Saddam Husein and funded the people who we know today as the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

 

I guess I may be one of the few people here old enough to actually remember Reagan and Thatcher's time in office.

It wasn't all roses, let me tell you. Seems he's now being made into something he wasn't.

But anyhow, he had a good innings. All the best to him wherever he is.

 

No, some of us DO REMEMBER Urak-Hai.

And Guinistasia, your accusations lack historical context. We supported the Mujahadeen, not OBL, in Afghanistan fighting against the Soviet occupation.

 

Right, and the Mujahadeen would later evolve into the Taliban.

Isn't it sickening to think that Afghanistan had MORE freedom under the Soviets than they did under the Taliban?

Here's some of our other allies from the Reagan admins

 

Ronald Reagan owns you.

Yes, you.

 

Great points everyone. It's nice to finally see some people making the connection between the problems we have toady and the Reagan administration. Believe it or not, they are all connected.

ie: Blowback for those of you not in the know

 

I guess I may be one of the few people here old enough to actually remember Reagan and Thatcher's time in office.

*waves* Another old fart checking in.

And hell, with my father going into journalism after he left the military, I had to know what was going on.

The first major news event I have any memory of is the Iran hostage crisis. I think I mentioned this on this thread already, but I don't remember ever being more frightened due to a world event, although 9/11 could probably tie for top place. Maybe it was because I was so small, or because my father was a journalist (still is). Those Ayatollah-loving nutters scared the bejesus out of me, to the point where my heart pounds even today thinking about it.

And Reagan's administration sold them weapons.

And yes, we supported Osama Bin Laden when he was trying to help free Afghanistan from the Soviet Union. My question is, did we know at the time what he was? If the answer is "yes", it wouldn't surprise me, because this country has a tendency to support anyone as long as they are opposed to communism--Francisco Franco, Pol Pot, the dictatorial regime in South Vietnam...

 

66 Things to Think About When Flying Into Reagan National Airport
by DAVID CORN

[from the March 2, 1998 issue of The Nation]

The firing of the air traffic controllers, winnable nuclear war, recallable nuclear missiles, trees that cause pollution, Elliott Abrams lying to Congress, ketchup as a vegetable, colluding with Guatemalan thugs, pardons for F.B.I. lawbreakers, voodoo economics, budget deficits, toasts to Ferdinand Marcos, public housing cutbacks, redbaiting the nuclear freeze movement, James Watt.

Getting cozy with Argentine fascist generals, tax credits for segregated schools, disinformation campaigns, "homeless by choice," Manuel Noriega, falling wages, the HUD scandal, air raids on Libya, "constructive engagement" with apartheid South Africa, United States Information Agency blacklists of liberal speakers, attacks on OSHA and workplace safety, the invasion of Grenada, assassination manuals, Nancy's astrologer.

Drug tests, lie detector tests, Fawn Hall, female appointees (8 percent), mining harbors, the S&L scandal, 239 dead U.S. troops in Beirut, Al Haig "in control," silence on AIDS, food-stamp reductions, Debategate, White House shredding, Jonas Savimbi, tax cuts for the rich, "mistakes were made."

Michael Deaver's conviction for influence peddling, Lyn Nofziger's conviction for influence peddling, Caspar Weinberger's five-count indictment, Ed Meese ("You don't have many suspects who are innocent of a crime"), Donald Regan (women don't "understand throw-weights"), education cuts, massacres in El Salvador.

"The bombing begins in five minutes," $640 Pentagon toilet seats, African- American judicial appointees (1.9 percent), Reader's Digest, C.I.A.-sponsored car-bombing in Lebanon (more than eighty civilians killed), 200 officials accused of wrongdoing, William Casey, Iran/contra.

"Facts are stupid things," three-by-five cards, the MX missile, Bitburg, S.D.I., Robert Bork, naps, Teflon.

---------------------------------


Thanks, David.

 

Somoza, Pinochet, Rios Montt, the Apartheid regime in South Africa...

 

Well, I had originally intended to return to my solitude from TFN's message boards after Saturday, but I guess I can hang around untill Friday nonethesame.....

AnakinGirl said

TripleB: You and I are about the same age, but I think it must be our different backgrounds that make our viewpoints of the 70s so different.

Oh, I won't deny that.

I think it was indeed Reagan who said "To a Conservitive, every day is the 4th of July; to a Liberal, it is April 15th (tax day)", if that analogy means anything to you.

Carter's administration had its faults,

That is the understatement of the century.....

but I don't remember living in massive fear that the Russians were going to blow us up. Was there some fear? Yes. But that fear actually got worse when Reagan took office and started multiplying the size of our nuclear arsenal. I was afraid that other countries would find out what we were doing, assume we were going to blow them up, and then blow us up before we had the chance.

I know where you are coming from. In general, Liberals hate america and our strength.

As such, to a liberal, I imagine the US being in a position of strength was worse to a liberal then the Soviets to actually have the force of strength over us. Under Carter, the real fear was not the Nucleur arsenal either. IT was the conventional arsenal. If the Soviets had invaded Western Europe with Carter in the White House, they would have probably taken all of WEstern Europe in very short order and I think you won't find a lot of people who would protest that.


was especially frightened when he started selling nuclear weapons to the Iranians, who just five years earlier had kidnapped several Americans and held them hostage and tortured them. I vividly remember this event in 1979, as my father is a journalist. Try explaining to a seven-year-old girl that her Daddy is not going to be one of the ones captured and beaten. It took awhile for "He's not in Iran" to sink in.

Do I understand correctly that you were afraid in 1979 of the Hostage Crisis that in 1986/87 when Iran/Contra hit, that it worried you so? I know I was worried when a lot of Central Americans were trying to get out of Central America because the Democrats were too cowardly to stand up to the SOviet Union

Right wingers do it now--seems like a fair tradeoff (if indeed that's what was happening).

You realize under this, that you have absolutely then, NO GROUND TO CRY ON if a Supreme Court Decision were to overturn Roe V Wade then, right?

It was all just a Supreme COurt Decision in the first place, so overturning it is just as constitutional as a Supreme Court overturning another Supreme Court Decision in Brown vs Topeka Board of Education, right?

I would love to hear of a time where Right-Wing courts fundamentally changed and legislated from the bench. I can't remember it happening a whole lot. The Conservitive way is to legislate from the Legislature, to do so thru the will of the people The LIberal Way is to legislate from Judiciary, where all you need to get is 5 people on a court to give you what you want over the will of the people, right?

I'll ignore the name-calling and get to your other points. Amazing that you're allowed to say "left-wing whacko" but we're not allowed to say "bigot".

You really want to have this discussion again? I can go back to that "Official Gay-Thread" and point out all the times where I categorically supported the rights of gay people to prove that I am not Homo-Phobe. In that same thread, I can pull out time after time where you made attacks against Christian Values enough for me to call you a Christian hating zealot. YOu sure did not like that sequence of events, as I recall.

As far as gas lines--if we Yanks would bloody learn to take public transportation, it wouldn't be an issue. Gas is around the equivalent of $6.50 a gallon right now in the UK, and they don't have problems getting around.

Then make that a campaign issue and see how far

 

TripleB, you're such a wallflower. You need to come out of your shell and say what you really mean.

 

TripleB, you're such a wallflower. You need to come out of your shell and say what you really mean.

Funny, I thought I had a reputation on these boards to say EXACTLY what I think/feel/believe in a take-no-prisoners style attitude, too!

Whats a Wallflower, anyway?

 

I saw 80s politics mostly through the political satire program Spitting Image. Looking back, Regan was a great American president, worthy of being remembered. But in the end, to me he'll always be that puppet who accidentally pressed the "red button" instead of the nurse button.

 

was especially frightened when he started selling nuclear weapons to the Iranians

The weapons that were sold to Iran were not nuclear. In fact, using todays term, they couldn't even be considered WMD-related.

The bulk of the shipments (there were 3 of them, total) comprised surplus army vehicles and TOW antitank missles, which were used against Saddam's armored corps.

The weapons to Iran did not really represent the "bad" part of Iran-Contra. (as in the whole diverting funds against the congressional Boland law)

FINAL IC REPORT

and actually, regarding Reagan's nuclear policy.

While this doesn't address how a specific individual would feel:

The year when the US had the largest amount of active nuclear weapons was not during Reagan's presidency.

HERE

In fact, in 1976, the US had 25,000 active nuclear targets as part of the nuclear forces alert plan.

In 1986, nearing the end of Reagan's term, this number was reduced to 16,000.