The Demotion of Strilo

Discussion in 'Communications' started by ObiWan506, Nov 9, 2010.

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  1. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    I'm curious as to why this was something worth a demotion, and not a ban, and if it didn't warrant a ban... was it some kind of agreement on Strilo's part? From what I've seen in the past, this kind of thing has usually happened after some blow up , and there was a ban first, then a demotion if necessary, or as a "3rd strike". Of course I'm making an assumption that a blow up happened here as awell, based on what's been said here and in Grimby's ban thread, and assumptions aren't always right.
  2. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Rhonda first and foremost this was absolutely not something I agreed to or agree with. Second, I too am confused as to why no intermediate step was apparently even considered. No ban, no suspension. Just straight to forced permanent demotion.

    As for you, G-FETT, you are spreading a lot of misinformation in your posts against me. Thanks for the link to the thread, which I hope people read. You will see I did not say anything in that thread that was anything other than my opinion about malkie's statements. Mods and managers are allowed to disagree with each other publicly. We're not robots or automatons. Nothing I said in that thread was an issue and nothing I did in that thread led to malkie's demotion. To quote the Head Admin at the time from that thread: "There is no regular user or mod with whom I have any issue regarding their posts." That would apply to me as well. So thanks, your link to "proof" of my misconduct against malkie has provided proof that in that thread I did nothing wrong.

    Secondly, the situation with Kimball Kinnison was most certainly not a blowout in Comms. It happened entirely in the MS forum and many, many users and mods alike have personally thanked me for pushing KK so hard that he stepped down. Sometimes doing what's right is not always without risk. Yes Sape banned me for actions I took in MS, but it's disingenuous of you not to state that KK himself was also banned for his actions in the situation.
  3. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Tim, you were a moderator for over seven years. It was time to move on. I'll be a year away from turning 30 next month, and when you were promoted, I was just 21. People have gotten undergrad and graduate degrees during your tenure.

    That's long enough for anyone here.
  4. Spider-Fan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    If he's modding effectively, why should there be a term limit?
  5. G-FETT Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    Strilo, on Malkie, I never said your actions lead to his demotion, but you were deeply involved in that controversial thread which kicked it all off. Having one mod accusing another mod of racism in the public forum is pretty extreme, IMO. Especially when you could have made the same points within the private confines of MS.

    On Kimball, I'm pretty sure I remember something about a Comms thread being locked by KK and you taking it upon yourself to reopen it? I also remember a pretty heated remark in the Senate forum and yes there was also a blow up in MS. So would it be better to say it was a multi forum bust up? In any case, I'm not sure why you took it upon yourself to "push KK out" as it really wasn't your remit to do that.

    Whatever the details of those incidents, and of course the memory fades with time, the broader point is correct, which is that you clearly have a pattern of getting into controversial situations, so my wider point that a controversial end to your MS career was inevitable, still stands.

    And I also agree entirely with KW. 7 years is a fantastic run. We should all celebrate the wonderful things you've achieved for your furms in that length of time. You've been a great assest to the forums you've modded.

    7 years is more than enough for anyone. It was time to stop. Enjoy the rest and the freedom that comes with being a regular forum member. :)
  6. DarthLowBudget Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
    While he may have been a mod for a very long time, surely he deserved to step out on his terms? And at least if not on his own terms, than not for the reasons, and in the manner, it seems he was forced out.

    For me, this isn't an issue of whether Strilo is a mod or not, but rather an issue of holding the Admins accountable to the users for their actions.
  7. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Ehh? not sure what I think about that. The administration can promote who they want. Likewise, I think that decisions like this should not really be left up for user review. I think in this specific instance, given how it was done, transparency is the best option but not really because the administration is accountable to the users.
  8. Boba_Fett_2001 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2000
    star 8
    Who are you all to say if Strilo's or anyone's time is up as a moderator? I mean, if it's painfully obvious that someone is no longer modding effectively as they used to then I can understand but just reading this thread it seems most people have nothing but good things to say about him as a mod.
  9. Spider-Fan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    I dunno, I think there should be some level of accountability. The admin shouldn't have to explain themselves to the users about every decisions, should be autonomous to make their own decisions, but I do think they should have some accountability for their actions and choices. However, I do agree that transparency would be best.
  10. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Maybe a better way to look at it is not necessarily accountability, but responsibility. You definitely have a responsibility to explain the processes and procedures and the thinking that goes behind them, especially tough decisions or controversial issues.
  11. Spider-Fan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    Yes thank you, that's a much better way of stating what I was trying to say...
  12. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    G-FETT - gotta agree with you about the general policy of not discussing MA issues, but as I said, the difference here is that Stri was having a fight with the Head Admin.

    Given the recent lack of user confidence given the problems with previous head admins, I think some explanation from Grimby is necessary. Rogue is trying, but it's optics, guys.
  13. DarthLowBudget Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
    That's all I really mean Jello. Of course the admins shouldn't have to explain every single thing they do (because who would want to read that), but I think when something happens that raises questions/causes controversy like this has, the best solution is transparency, and perhaps some degree of accountability. As it stands we are about 24 hours from this and there still seems there hasn't been any official announcement of this, either in the appropriate Comms threads, or on the boards Strilo moderates, and that seems slightly suspicious to me, as if there are personal feelings clouding what should ideally be a rational administrative decision. Coming so quickly after Grimby's self-ban not that the two are necessarily linked, but do the math (and I agree with SLG that this raises questions over the necessity ofStrilo's demotion) I think it becomes necessary for the administration to be more candid about their decision making process, lest the users lose confidence in their leadership.


    Also, what rhonderoo said, responsibility is a much better word than accountability for what I meant.
  14. G-FETT Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    Roo, you know I have a great respect for you and 506 and your times as admins and head admins. I do have to ask though you weren't exactly banging the drum for explaining what was going on when Malkie was demoted I mean, granted he was banned as well, but even when he came back there was never really any public explanation from anybody as to what was going on at that time.


    Garth, I don't disagree with what you say. I'm just saying there is nothing in past history that says MS has to make things public.
  15. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 9
    Gfett, with all due respect, we are not here to discuss malkie's demotion... that happened almost four years ago. This is an entirely separate issue.
  16. G-FETT Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    Indeed. But its important to put recent events into their historical perspectives. Its also important to note when double standards may be occuring.
  17. DarthLowBudget Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
    Well G-Fett the difference here seems to be that, as I recall, malkie had been causing issues on the boards at the time of his demotion, whereas the reasons behind Strilo's demotion seem entirely more arcane and procedural.
  18. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Malkie's demotion could have been handled a million times better than it was, for sure. In fact, personally, I learned from that and other situations(it sounds like 506 did as well)that the more controversial the more candid you may have to be. The administration back then during those times hid behind the privacy issue and didn't do enough frank talk with the users. Granted times were different, as there was more traffic in Comms and maybe some of that was warranted, but there still could have been much more transparency.

    One thing's for sure, I learned stuff like this should never come as a surprise to those in question, and those that work with them and if you made a decision, just come out and say why you made the decision and either stand by it, or admit you could have done it differently.
  19. TahiriVeilaSolo69 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 5
    You say you don't have a personal problem with him, yet your first post all but calls him an abrasive bastard speaks otherwise. Try to be more objective in the future. I find your posts in this thread highly confrontational. :)

    I think you should probably allow Tim, who is an adult and certainly capable of making his own decisions in life, decide whether or not he should "move on". I find your post kinda offensive. Do you think that way about people who have been users here for 7+ years also?

    I am saddened by Tim's demotion. We have had our problems, he banned me numerous times :p. He was a fantastic mod. I would like to know what led to his demotion just like everyone in this thread. Tim said that he wants it discussed.
  20. Sith-Lord-Gunray Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2003
    star 7
    Some of you are missing the point. The length of time Strilo was in MS is completely irrelevant to this situation. There has never been a rule for that, and the admins have never said anything about that being related to his demotion. I think it would be best if we stopped attacking his side of this situation for irrelevant reasons and instead waited to hear what Grimby has to say.

    And on the note of Strilo's past behavior - yes, there were instances where Strilo was punished. However, context needs to be considered with those. I am in no way saying that he was not guilty and the punishment was undeserved, but to just say "Oh well he was banned such and such times this many years ago..." is a pretty poor reason for demoting someone now. He's already received the punishment for those. I am half inclined to suspect that this forced demotion might have something to do with Strilo's very forceful methods of arguing. I know I argue with him at least once a week, and yes, he is extremely passionate and persistent with his opinions. However, if this demotion is again related to that, I'm curious why there was never an attempt to really focus on trying to help him control when he gets overheated. It's one thing to send an accusatory message to someone, it's another to try and help them without ticking them off. Those are common sense people skills. And since after asking Strilo if anyone ever attempted to do that with him, and he told me that no, they have not - well, that just makes me really wonder why the admins decided to skip all those steps and jump to demoting him. That comes across as lazy. As a "I don't want to deal with this problem anymore, let's get rid of it." If that's not the case Grimby/RJ/LAJ, do speak up and explain why it isn't. I don't think vague answers are appropriate for this one.

    Given that the argument that led to this decision was between Grimby and Strilo (I know this by putting things together, and it's the only thing that makes sense), I would suspect that Grimby became overwhelmed and passed the decision to the head admins. I would then expect that the head admins contacted Strilo, and most likely sent him an accusatory pm to "help" and "mediate" (as explained in the previous paragraph, as I know he didn't receive a neutral pm), and then were shocked and appalled when Strilo reacted in an unpleasant manner. If this is how that actually played out, I'd question the admins and their common sense/mediating skills before even touching upon Strilo's reaction. Now assuming I'm right there, that would lead up to Grimby's self-imposed ban which was his own idea. Grimby's ban was due to his flaming Strilo in a pm. Strilo did not flame Grimby via pm. And there's the part where this story does not add up. Why would the admins decide to give the head admin a slap on the wrist for doing worse than what Strilo had done? I am again going to guess that they took into account the incidents that Strilo was already punished for years ago. And if that's the case, that is NOT even close to a suitable reason to demote someone. Could it have been an in general "We don't like the way he argues and he's too passionate"? Maybe. But again, not suitable.

    Now, I'm not going to say that the above is how this actually played out, but I bet I'm pretty damn close. And I certainly am expecting a really crystal clear reason that I haven't mentioned for why they demoted him, because the only possible reasons that I could come up with were...far from acceptable.

    There has always been an understanding in MS for the growth of users, as well as mods because that creates a positive environment that is consistently growing. I mean, look at my usernotes before I was promoted. They were a nightmare. And yet there was an understanding that people change as they get older, that they learn from their mistakes. But you need to give them a chance to learn. And not only do you need to give them a chance, you need to sit down with them yourself, with a good deal of patience, and help them understand the best you can.
  21. G-FETT Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    Hey Roo, thats why I've always had the greatest respect for you. I love your honesty.[:D]

    I don't have a personal problem with him. But I speak as I find and Strilo has had a controversial past and can be abrasive with his collegues. I mean, as he said himself, he personally took it upon himself to force out KK.

    I am sorry if I'm coming across as confrontational though. So as not to monopolise the thread I'll button it for the time being, cause I've pretty much said everything I wanted to say anyway.
  22. TahiriVeilaSolo69 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 5
    And I find that his reasoning for doing so, with the backing of several mods and users, was beneficial to the boards. Sometimes, people have to do the dirty work. It isn't necessary to drag up things from 5+ years ago, that have already been dealt with. That's nitpicking and looking for a reason to purposely get rid of someone because you don't like them.

    I am curious where is our head admins are? Grimby? Care to stop blowing up MS and come in here and let us know what is going on?
  23. shanerjedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Does he have a built in time limit like a replicant?

    Seriously, what does length of time have to do with this at all?

  24. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    A point on the length of time issue.

    I. Mods have been nudged to retire because "it's time" or suggestions of burnout. It's not unprecedented at all, if uncommon.

    II. Length of time also goes towards somebody's capacity to change in terms of being given plenty of opportunities to change.

    I'm not rendering an opinion as to whether either factor applies here, but I'd just like to make it clear that length of service can be relevant, if not dispositive.
  25. shanerjedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Yes length of time if there has been a dispute and people are on some sort of time limit in which to change or become more cooperative.

    But to say "well, he's a veteran so time to step down regardless of performance" doesn't fly.

    And Tim was modding effectively.

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