Discussion in 'Communications' started by ObiWan506, Nov 9, 2010.
I don't understand why you were hesitant to say that to begin with.
Then it needs to be brought to light.
I think on a public forum that might be a really bad idea. I mean, how much would you like to be brought out? Presumably you wouldn't want all those mods that have spoken to admins past and present about Strilo to be named and have their complaints published? I doubt Strilo would want that either, to be honest.
Grimby has given a broad outline of events, a much more in depth outline than has been revealed by past admins in such situations. I really think thats as far as Grimby and co should go.
So wait...you earlier said that Tim was demoted because he wasn't participating in MS. But now you are saying that he made MS an unwelcoming place. What the deuce?
Perhaps staying out of MS was his way of changing his behavior?
That's kind of exactly what I was thinking.
I'm also still not seeing how all of what you said, Grimby, is reason for demotion. I mean, it's like I've been saying a million times earlier. How is your history of behavior appropriate for the position of head admin, as it's far worse than Strilo's (who you're claiming is too hostile, although you're the one who flamed him, and he did not flame anyone?), and yet you demote Strilo? Can that be addressed?
I could write a lengthy, damning post, but what would be the point? I haven't had a run-in with Strilo in years, and I see no reason to grind axes now. Now that I've found what I think is my niche in life, I don't care like I used to. But, as Dajuan implied, there is much more that could be said. Please don't take silence for some kind of acknowledgement that things were peachy.
If that's not enough for some people, too bad.
Regarding length of service, I'm of the opinion that seven years is too long for anyone here. No one should be moderating consecutively for that long. It just shouldn't happen. Do it for a few years at most and move on, making room for other people. That's what I did and what's what I think everyone should do, at least in general.
We admins agreed on the course of action taken. But as G-FETT said I don't think we need to air all of our dirty laundry in a public forum. Strilo may not be a mod any more but he still has feelings and I don't think we need a knock-down, drag-out fight here.
It seems that there was a compromise in that Strilo just didn?t post in MS and avoided causing some hurt feelings. He made MS a less welcoming place, so he didn?t stick his head in. Seems like the problem solved itself. Plus, he still managed his forums. He didn?t disappear completely. Because then I could understand the demotion.
I?m just interested, why a demotion? Why not a ban, like the one you placed on yourself? See, that?s my point. Come up with an encyclopedia of reasons why Strilo can be strenuous and I?ll still point out that a ban was a more proportional response rather than demoting. It just is. That?s the virtue of a proportional response and that?s what I?m trying to point out but has still gone unaddressed.
The last week in Comms has me really finding it hard to trust the judgments and decision making skills of Grimby as Head Admin. As Head Admin you need to be able to make changes in your supervisor skill set to work with everyone around you. Not the other way around which it sounds like is happening.
I also think you guys need to adapt a more open policy in regards to discussion in a public forum. These last two threads in Comms have been a little better in that direction and I hope we see more of it in the future.
I agree we don't need to name names. But I would like to know more of a sequence of events.
I agree completely (as everyone knows)
So basically you're saying that you value someone who will concede because asked over someone who will stick with their convictions because they believe them to be right? Automatic concession doesn't equal respect, nor is it intellectually honest. So what if someone speaks their mind? If others can't handle it, that seems more like their problem, and perhaps they should toughen up. People will always have differing opinions, and no organization can ever expect to have everybody agree all the time. In fact, an organization where that is expected is usually poorly run to begin with.
Something else I'm really concerned about is it seems that it seems like now its more important to keep everything hunky dory in MS than it is to be a good moderator in your own forum. Let's be honest here, most users don't know or don't care what mods do in MS. They only really know they're mods through direct interaction on the boards. It would seem logical to me that being good at that, as I believe all would agree Strilo was, is vastly more important than playing nice in the backroom. If you honestly think otherwise, maybe its time to hang it up.
To me it sounds as if the reason why they only mentioned the lack of participation at first was a way of being respectful against Strilo. Saying that you're demoted because of inactivity sounds more honourable than saying that you're demoted because you were a detriment to the MS.
As far as I'm concerned, the only point that has to be addressed now is why the demote instead of just a ban like 506 said.
So basically you want strong opinionated people representing the users as mods, but the first sign of intimidation is to step aside and do nothing because they feel intimidated by the Alpha?
Srsly? Maybe if more mods were like Strilo, you wouldn't have such a controversy over how well the MS functions as a whole, by a user's standpoint.
Your argument is weak, the past is the past, using that as ammunition is crap, and you've yet to discuss what ultimately put tim over the line as far as being demoted.
That's another thing, quit saying he stepped down, you ****canned him and you did it out of some sort of animosity that you refuse to express.
As far as it being a unanimous decision amoung admins, that's whatever. If it wasn't though, do you honestly think the other two would openly challenge Grandmaster Grimby in all of this?
This is the kind of response you're going to receive until you're completely open about the how and why you kicked a perfectly functional and willing mod to the curb. You guys can't even muster enough goings on to keep a weekly msu or atb going, what the hell can be so important in MS that Strilo was apparently not participating in?
There are ways of being completely transparent and providing the userbase with information that they should have without making life uncomfortable for any individual (mostly).
The situation moved on when Grimby posted, but thanks for reminding me.
See but Ob Anne they said it was both lack of participation and being "non-coheisve" and then implied that there was more they were unwilling to discuss, but now they're just saying, in a lot more words that it was only those two things. I want to know what that more was, and why that more was demotion worthy.
The first part of your post brings me to a point: moderating your forums is the most important job. MS is secondary. Tim was always active in PT moderating and if he was not, he would get someone to fill in(sometimes me).
So the moderating the forums is not even an issue. He was as good a moderator in his forums as could be expected. And I've been a frequenter(but non registered) of the JC since post-TPM(if it was even the JC back then).
So the demotion comes down to a couple of things: participation in MS(which the admins have said was a small part of their consideration) and ongoing animosity between a Head Admin and a moderator.
I think there is a degree of difference between having a happy-go-lucky everyone-gets-along MS and one where people don't feel bullied out of being function members of a governing body. What good is a MS that doesn't discuss issues because they can't?? I am not saying that's what happened, but I think there's a distinction between Grimby expecting everyone to agree with him, and Grimby expecting people be allowed to discuss.
This is exactly what I took away from Grimby's statement. And if making MS a less welcoming place WASN'T enough reason for demotion at the time it was occuring, why would his resulting lack of MS participation be one now?
What good does a ban do in a situation like this, 506? This wasn't about something as petty as giving someone a slap on the wrist over an argument in a PM conversation. This is not a reaction to one single problem, but the culmination of many many problems brought up by previous admins over and over again. This is not the first time this course of action was discussed, either. The fact that he told me he was unwilling to participate in MS was the reason I thought he should step down. When the admins discussed the issue and took into account everything else, we made our decision.