The Demotion of Strilo

Discussion in 'Communications' started by ObiWan506, Nov 9, 2010.

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  1. TahiriVeilaSolo69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 5
    THIS.

    Grimby: You JUST said that he was making MS uncomfortable, so he stopped participating as much. Now you are saying that he was demoted because he wasn't participating. Are you getting your lies all twisted?
  2. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    But he wasn't just "not participating" in MS, he wasn't communicating with the head admin AT ALL, even on matters that related to issues in his forum.

    It sounds a totally untennable position and if it isn't reason for demotion I don't know what is.
  3. Sith-Lord-Gunray Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2003
    star 7
    Grimby, that is not an acceptable "explanation" for this action, and you're capable of more.
  4. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    This. Let's not mischaracterize or draw false dichotomies, they're not helpful (Ju-Ju, this includes you. c'mon.)

    dork/506: If it was worked out as a compromise, that might be different. The impression I got from conversations with him was that he was simply sick of MS, especially certain parties in MS. It's not entirely an alien sentiment for mods mods, I think you'll agree, so that in itself isn't dispositive--but it would be inaccurate to characterize this as an understanding or a compromise.
  5. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Is that really necessary, Eden? Can't we do this without getting all accusatory? There are plenty of things to say without getting hostile about it.

    edit: blah, double post. I should really stop reading Comms in class.
  6. DarthLowBudget Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
    You keep on using these words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.


    It basically sounds like you are calling into question the competence of previous admins, by implying that they did not take correct action against Strilo in the past.

    I'm also highly concerned that you consider a, by your own admission, TOS-violating PM from a Head Admin (who should be held to higher standards than the rest of us) to be a petty concern.


    I would also like this cleared up. When you say "unwilling to participate in MS" do you mean that he refused to post at all, or that he refused to post the way you wanted him to? Because that seems like a concern we would all like to see addressed.


    G-Fett: You're continual reposting of admins posts without adding anything new or constructive to the conversation is getting really really distracting.


    Oh, and I think Shane hits the nail on the head.
  7. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus/2014 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6

    Are you saying that the ban you gave yourself was petty? If so then why do it? The other admins did not agree that it was necessary according to you and I translate that into not something that broke the TOS. Did you just want a two day vacation or were the other admins incorrect and trying to give you special treatment?
  8. ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 8
    So what was the point of having a self ban put on yourself? To save face? To kiss ass witht eh MS, to let them know you were on board.

    Just admit it, you wanted him out. Banning yourself to make it look even was probably the most idiotic thing you could have done in the face of the regular users, your repeated avoiding the reasosn behind the situation are just as bad. You've gotten the permission o fStrilo to openly discuss this, and you refuse. So is it really such a surprise that it looks like you're looking to hisde some, if not a lot, of the detaqils leading to this decision?
  9. DarthLowBudget Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
    Or dare we ask, was the ban done to create an image of fairness and even-handedness?

    I think that's a fair question to ask.
  10. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    A ban for a mod is more than a slap on the wrist. It's a big deal and it gets the point across. Your self-imposed ban wasn't simply a slap on the wrist, right? It had merit, I'm sure. So why would a ban on Strilo be any different? And again, MS participation is peanuts compared to someone's participation in their own forum. Plus, sounds like he did you a favor by staying out. So why not just let that have been it and ban him for whatever went over the line in this current situation?

    I just don't get the exaggerated response.
  11. TahiriVeilaSolo69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 5
    1) For shame Jay! You need to be paying attention. I'm going to need a good lawyer soon :p

    2) Whether or not he is lying, he's sneaking around and refusal to be transparent leads me to believe that he is hiding things and being less then truthful. I see 5 year olds playing the same game everyday. "Did you put your gum in Sammie's hair, Leslie?" *looks all innocent* "No Miss Eden I didn't" "Uh-huh, so where did your gum go?". Oh look, I can make a metaphor too.
  12. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    TahiriVeilaSolo69

    Very wrong conclusion to draw from my post.

    I don't think anyone is lying. I just think people are dancing around things.

    Another thing has to be said:

    This issue about some mods not willing to participate in MS because they thought strilo was too brazen, aggressive, whatever.

    Then that is their problem and they have a responsibility to bring it up to the admins or to Tim. If Tim is unresponsive or dismissive, then take appropriate action.

    But Tim ducked out of MS anyway. So then what do we have?
  13. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    Allow me to also say that since I'm one of the previous admins that you cite in your post as being one to talk about Strilo in the past, I still see this as an exaggerated response and I know the history you're talking about.
  14. Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 7
    I have to disagree to a point with you, Juli. I'm going to first off say that I like Tim personally. He and I get along well. However, I will also say that he and I got into it many times in the MS. During my admin tenure there were many times we hashed things out and I, ultimately, had to pull rank. Tim and I were able to talk via PM and come to an understanding.

    Someone expressing their opinions is fine but, often, the way they express them can be significantly off putting. In the past, there were several mods who voiced their opinions in the MS and Comms in a pretty harsh way. It was often difficult to communicate with them because of the antagonistic and defensive stance they took. When you had other mods who felt comfortable standing their ground and going ?toe-to-toe? with them, the dynamic is much different than when you have new mods who may feel very intimidated by the stronger mod.

    I don?t agree that ?the past is the past? because that can be a serious indicator of how things progress to a point like we are now. Tim said several times that he was done with the MS and, ultimately, if he felt he couldn?t work effectively under the three admins, he should have left. Just staying out of the MS and focusing on moderating the forum isn?t the only thing we mods should be doing. From what I?m seeing, this wasn?t solely ?he wasn?t participating? because there are other mods to which that could apply.

    I personally do not agree with the process that was taken and the method used to facilitate and communicate Tim?s demotion. I have offered to help craft new procedures and work to help ensure that communication in the MS and in Comms is more effective in the future. I?ve talked with Grimby about other options that could have been used before such a drastic step as demotion, as others have said in this thread.

    I think it?s important that the other admins also comment on how they came to this decision as well since this was not solely Grimby?s decision.
  15. TahiriVeilaSolo69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 5
    Shane, I wasn't referring that from your post. I have said earlier in this thread that I thought they were pussyfooting around the issue. Now that people have posted, I feel as though there are lies mixed with half-truths to save face. That is my own formed opinion.
  16. Grimby Technical Consultant

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2000
    star 7
    After being asked to be less hostile toward others in MS, he stopped participating at all except for some of the MS polls and a few discussions involving problem users he was directly involved with. But don't misconstrue what I'm saying here, the lack of participation itself wasn't so much the problem, it was his attitude toward the admins and his refusal to cooperate that led to the discussion about asking him to step down.
  17. Sith-Lord-Gunray Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2003
    star 7
    Grimby I understand you're busy, but do you have any intention of directly addressing any of the points made in this thread, with clear direct explanations? I just want to know if you intend to do that, I understand that it will take a long time to write out.
  18. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Another thing has to be said:

    This issue about some mods not willing to participate in MS because they thought strilo was too brazen, aggressive, whatever.

    Then that is their problem and they have a responsibility to bring it up to the admins or to Tim. If Tim is unresponsive or dismissive, then take appropriate action.

    But Tim ducked out of MS anyway. So then what do we have?
  19. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    There are also people misconstruing facts and drawing (seemingly) false conclusions, based on what little is said. I think people are missing certain points and reading what they want to read.
  20. DarthLowBudget Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
    So Grimby, you're basically saying that he didn't actually leave MS, just scaled back his interaction with it while continuing to participate in things that would be important to him to participate in? Not seeing how that's demotion worthy.

    EDIT: Spider-fan, if people are reading what they want to, its because what they're being given is so vague and self-contradictory that they have to read in to it in order to respond to it.
  21. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    There is truth that I pulled back from posting in MS for a while. As many of you have noted, I was around for a long time and worked under many head admins. I know I was a pain in the ass sometimes, and they do too. Both Rhonda and 506 would vouch for that. But they came to me when things got too far and talked to me about it. I would think they would both say that when they came to me, no matter how blunt or even aggressive I was, that I was always willing to talk and try my best to see all sides of the issues at hand. Things were the same under Sape as well. But once Grimby took over as head admin, it became clear to me fairly quickly that dissent and disagreement would be handled in a much different way. I think things got entirely too defensive and entirely too many decisions were being made from a place of unstable emotion. It was my opinion that the type of dissent and disagreement that I had to give was no longer appreciated or accepted. I no longer felt I could actually get into the meat of issues and discuss them without the head admin coming after me in a defensive and seemingly unstable manner. I had not changed. If anything I had mellowed a bit from how things were in MS in 2004. I had not changed but the head admin had. Because of this I did pull back from particpating actively in MS.

    So Grimby says "Strilo was never willing to change his behavior. He would argue his position until the end and hardly ever conceded anything." This ties into what I was saying above. I was dissenting and disagreeing in a manner he did not like. I changed my behavior when I felt it was the right thing to do. Again, previous head admins can vouch for this. In addition, when Grimby came to me at the end of last week and said my participation in MS had become an issue, I immediately took his criticism and acted on it. Even despite the issues I have with him. I still listened and took criticism from him. This was not really a question of my behavior. This was a question of Grimby's issue with my behavior.

    That said, my participation in MS for the last 8-10 months has been pretty much voting in Moderator polls and posting in problem user threads when it was relevant. I missed a few mod polls because I am a busy guy and sometimes the polls go really quick. I also occasionally receive PMs from Grimby asking for one thing or another. For example, the standard PM reminding me I had Unban Requests to check and reply to. Never once did I ignore these. I would almost always go right away to the URs and check for mine, replying as I should have. Not replying to Grimby's PM does not equate ignoring them. I still did my job, I just did not reply to his PM. Another example was a request from Grimby for all mods and admins. He PM'd me about that, I was at an awful busy day at work and I read his PM and did not get into MS to do what he'd asked until he sent a second PM to remind me. Unfortunate? Yes. Intentional? No. Lastly, Grimby mentioned that he came to me a few weeks ago about an inactive mod that he thought I might have info about. I replied to Grimby saying I would look into things. I emailed said mod and asked what was up and if they could check in with MS. Well it turns out Grimby did not get the PM but I did not know this until he told me he never got a reply. I checked my sent PMs and sure enough there was no reply, even though I know I typed it and sent it. I specifically remember doing it. So again, unfortunate but not intentional. Grimby states that I ignored his PMs, but you can see this is not true.

    And so we come to the "current situation" as it's been referred to by Grimby himself. In this thread I took issue to something Grimby said and instead of responding to him in PM, I posted the comment "How is that helpful?" A PM exchange then ensued in which Grimby pointed out that I was also being unhelpful. I pointed out that he is the head admin and is held to the highest standard of all of us on the JC.
  22. Eeth-my-Koth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 9
  23. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    So then again, why a demotion and not a ban? Still haven?t heard why or why we can?t repair this a little bit and switch it. Why do we have to stick to our guns so much that we turn into a brick wall? Very little has been made to address points made.
  24. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Unless the rules have changed, we've always held mods accountable for posting in MS,at least some. Maybe not since the beginning of time, but at least before I was promoted. It would be disengenious of me to say that Strilo staying out of MS because he's a detriment to that environment, but he can keep modding would have made me comfortable as a Head Admin, so I won't do that. In fact, there were plenty of heated arguments about mods participating more as a rule, if I remember correctly.

    I won't pile on here because I know being a Head Admin can be a thankless job sometimes, I would just suggest in the future to make sure that there is clear communication between a Strilo and yourself, as well as with the MS, as to what is expected and what the consequences are if there can't be some kind of resolution - i.e. a ban, then a suspension, limb-removal, etc. Having a yes-man MS isn't beneficial at all, but having one in constant strife isn't either. I don't have a clue how things are now in MS, and I'd be lying if I said Strilo and I didn't have our issues in the past as Head Admin and Mod, although I find him to be a great guy outside of that, but from what I see (and this could be hugely flawed, because I'm just going on what's been posted here) it all boils down to communication and respect. I don't know if he knew he was getting demoted before hand, or if he'd been spoken to about it and the choices he had, but it appears he didn't and that's probably where I could see it being done in a better way. And I can tell you that from experience.
  25. Sith-Lord-Gunray Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2003
    star 7
    So...after reading Strilo's post...how are the regular users supposed to have faith in the admins, let alone MS?
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