Saga The Depth of Anakin/Vader's Tragedy

I think most people find Vader to be a compelling character due to how tragic he truly is.

If you feel sorry for him, why? If not, why?

I think Vader is particularly ruthless to his own subordinates because they are part of the Empire. That is a reminder of the bad choices he made. Even though I believe that Vader is convinced himself that the Empire's perverted brand of justice is necessary for the galaxy, he knows, at least subconsciously, that he has made some serious mistakes, and he hates himself for the loss of Padme. That's part of why he's bitter and intolerant toward Imperial military leaders, since they are extensions of Sidious's will in his mind. The only one he seems to respect is Tarkin. Luke's progress as a Jedi awakens some suspicion in him, and he sees what he could have been.

 

Yes, I think this character is tragic but that it's conveyed muh better in the OT. Likewise he isn't the sole tragic one present by a long shot.

Why? Because his and the Order's poor choices lead to bondage for the galaxy for 20 years. That's sad.

 

Overall I feel sorry for Anakin/Vader, now I won't deny that over the course of his life he's done some really messed up stuff, which led to his life being even more messed up along the way. But in the end of the day it comes down to the fact that it seems he ends up hating himself so much so that he feels that there is no turning back, and he must continue on as a villain, to the point that I believe that for most of them span of the Empire that he was numb to everything around him.

 

He is the man who learns joy and friendship and love, who knows all these things and understands them, but still completely turns away from them and choses the emptiness of space, an utter rejection of friendship and love and all the little joys of life. They are now nothing but pathetic weaknesses to him that need to be purged. Yes it is tragic that a decent man (that he was in TCW, at least) can become so utterly, utterly rotten by his very own choice. It is also scary.

 

I see why one wouldn't. Of course, the reason I like ROTJ is for the aforementioned reason in my initial post. That's just me, though.

 

He does seem numb or desensitized to a considerable degree. I can see why Leia had trouble coming to terms with him. Vader did some appalling things with a heart of ice, but there was also some private pain deep within.

 

yes i feel sorry for him in way, or at times. I like what lucas called it ; "The Tragedy of Darth Vader" . That's not to say he made the right choice's or justify it .

 

I think this has nothing to do with it. I think he's just consumed by anger and hate at all times, and takes it out on those around him, and anyone in his path.

Which I find inconsistent with your reasoning for Vader's behavior, since Tarkin is as Imperial as it gets.

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Since we seem to be doing this by the movies...

TPM: I don't really feel sorry for him here. Yeah, he's a slave and that's bad, but he's a good kid, full of energy and compassion and he's about to start his grand adventure. I feel happy for him, and I'm supposed to, this is the good before the fall.

AOTC: Too bad the good was all gone before this one even started. He's just so repulsive in this movie that it completely kills any sympathy I might have had for him, and makes tragedy impossible.

ROTS: Just more of the same repulsive Anakin, who only gets what he deserves, and good riddance.

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I'm gonna go back to pre-PT, back to when I first saw the OT.

ANH: Why feel sorry for him? He's the ultimate Dragon at this point.
ESB: Other than the suit, why feel sorry for him? He's large and in charge.

ROTJ: Ah, back before the PT, I definitely feel sorry for him, for two reasons.

1) By the end, his physical condition is just so pathetic. He's more machine than man. It's like seeing someone in a hospital, hooked up to a breathing machine, tubes all through them, it's just a sorry state for any human to be reduced to. He's in a walking iron lung. As someone with asthma, the wheezing really gets to me. He doesn't have any of the limbs he was born with, they're all mechanical. He's burnt all over. "Just for once, let me look on you with my own eyes." Apparently the guy doesn't even get to see with human eyes. He doesn't get to touch with human hands. What a miserable existence.

2) He's weak and depressed. "Obi-Wan once thought as you do." What a wistful, pathetic comment, full of regret. "It is too late for me, son." Weak, resigned, depressing.

I can still feel pity for him when I watch ROTJ. The only difference is that once I imagined that perhaps this Anakin Skywalker person was someone I would have liked. It's like being told about a family member who died before you got to know them. "You would have liked him". Now I know otherwise, that dead family member was actually repulsive and I'm glad I never got to know him, or rather I wish I never did.

Still, Vader was able to find some purgation, and die in peace, and that's nice.

 

I suppose you could say that, all things considered, I do feel sorry for him. I can feel his pain. I don't condone his "dark" actions at all, but I understand his situation and empathize with his decisions. He's a human being who makes a terrible mistake and pays a terrible price for it. In the end, though, he actually learns something and turns the situation around to something good. That's where my sympathy for him returns.

While I know that some of us think of Anakin as a repulsive human being who had it coming, I've never felt that way. Sure, he's a bit hotheaded and arrogant, but the kid's got passion. He cares. I admit, he's probably not the kind of person I'd hang out with, but that doesn't make me dislike him.
It should be noted, though, that I don't think anyone deserves to suffer. Very few people want to make the world worse and even if someone does, there's always a history, a reason for their behavior. That doesn't right the wrongs, but at least we can see that this is a human being in learning, just like us, with wants and desires that may differ greatly from our own.
Hate the crime, not the criminal. Attack the problem at its root.

 

What anakinfansince1983 said.

 

The OT certainly is better written.

 

I always took 'tragedy' in the broader sense of what it meant for the galaxy. Yeah, he ended up fulfilling the prophecy in that he (eventually) wiped out the Sith but along the route the Jedi were also eradicated, millions of people died and he committed or allowed to be committed heinously evil acts at his own hand or on his orders. It's pretty tragic that he was so incredibly dangerous and malevolent as Vader that killing the most powerful and dangerous Sith Lord in galactic history wasn't enough to balance the scales in some eyes, in and out of universe.

As for the personal tragedy, perhaps not so much. I mean, he started out as a pretty chipper and cheerful kid considering he was born a slave but throughout most of his adult life (in the films at least) he was arrogant and entitled and not particularly likable. Palpatine may have egged him on but every evil thing he did as Anakin he did of his own will.

 

That's what they call sociology of fiction, Jakobitis89, regarding the first paragraph. I couldn't agree more.

Yeah. Personally, we can feel sorry for Anakin, but you sum it up well. Lumiya once said he was a bad or at least selfish to begin with. Matthew Strover implied and explicitly stated that the dark side was giving him many, many reasons to become what he always wanted to be, and Palpatine himself implied he was merely giving him permission. That's a sick way to look at it, but it's also emotionally realistic as it pertains to many individuals in the real world. History is full of them. The difference is that they rarely redeemed themselves, and Vader is an example of a person who very realistically acted in self-sacrifice and contrition at the end out of both guilt and love for his son.

 

I don't know that I believe that Anakin was always 'destined' to be bad... but I do think he was always going to struggle with the darker sides of his personality. He had a lot of issues, a lot of anger, and it took very little for him to lose control of those. Ironically, if the Jedi had actually found him at the 'normal' age he probably would have turned out okay, but being removed from his mother only made things worse.

 

He's tragic, certainly, but I still find it hard to muster up any sympathy for him. He had so much going for him and he threw that all away because he had so little self-awareness/humility. I wouldn't go as far as to say "he deserved getting set on fire and losing his wife and best friend etc", but no one else but him is to blame.

 

Generally speaking a literary tragic hero would be one who started off as genuinely heroic and was bought low by a personal flaw - a classic example being Macbeth, who started as a genuine hero but ambition lead him to evil. Anakin's flaw was his anger I think, every minor thing he blew well out of proportion - unfortunately on screen we don't see very much to make him that sympathetic otherwise. He just comes across as arrogant and cocky instead - when he charges Dooku alone in Episode 2 and gets zapped I for one felt he kind of had that coming.

 

I suppose it's because I'm a writer. I have to sympathize with my antagonists. One of them has prejudices against certain types of women. One of them would be happier if he got a sex-change. One of them makes Hitler and Stalin look like teddy bears.

I mean, actors and writers have to understand and feel sorry for their evil characters. Donald Sutherland says his Persident Snow character is worse than Stalin, LBJ, and Hitler, but he also said, "I have great affection for him." It's weird, but the idea is that you have to see some redeeming quality to a villain or antivillain. Sidious Palpatine is a villain. He's a sadist sociopath, and his only redeeming quality is his brilliant mind. Vader is an antivillain. He is twisted, but he has good intentions and inner conflict at times.

"What could you hate enough to destroy me?"
- Darth Maul clone created by Dark Side Prophets

"Myself!"
- Vader