The development of Kyp Durron (Rebirth Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by JediMasterAaron, Aug 1, 2001.

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  1. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Hey everyone,

    Well, I bought Rebirth yesterday, and finished Rebirth yesterday, and although it was a good book, it wasn't my favorite of the NJO.

    Now, to all who read the book...what do you think of Kyp now? Considering his actions, have your opinions of him changed at all? Here's how I'm feeling now...

    Before this book, I was always leaning towards the school of thought that Kyp and his faction were wrong, and Luke was right, no matter what the circumstances. As of now...I'm positive of it. Kyp Durron is not worthy of the title of Jedi Master, or Jedi of all for that matter, and after this book, I think we can say without a doubt that A) If Luke, or one of his group, isn't forced to kill Kyp when he gets completely out of hand, then B) He will definitely turn to the Dark Side by the end of this series. I cannot believe that Jedi have fallen this low. Striking at YV civilians...I could completely understand how Jaina felt. The thing is, I was starting to think that Kyp was showing sense when I thought it was a superweapon. A superweapon like he was describing could have ended the war in a matter of seconds. It could have destroyed the entirety of the Core in days. But what he did...that crosses the line. As far as I'm concerned, Kyp is already using the Dark Side. Not only that, but he's wallowing in it, since he truly believes what he is doing is right. I can't wait to see where the next book goes, because it looks like Luke may finally be developing some backbone. As much as I agreed with his views on the Force, I do think he needed to ACT a bit more rather than just wait. Now, he seems poised to do so. As far as Kyp goes though, after this book I tossed him in the "Needs to Die Within the Next Two Books" category, along with Borsk Fey'lya.

    My two cents

    JMA
  2. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Hitting that particular target was very useful to the war effort since the other ones are dying. So there were civilians killed--big deal. How many NR civilians have perished? Thousands? Millions? How many Hutts have perished fighting the Vong?

    The war between the NR and the Empire was over political ideology and which one was superior. The war with the Vong is entirely different: it isn't a war of ideology, it is a war of survival. The Vong just don't want a sliver of territory, they want the entire galaxy. They don't want to live in harmony with the current residents. They consider them infidels for using machines and want to enslave them. The Vong want to totally strip them of their freedom and use them as cannon fodder and sacrifices.
  3. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    not read it, but does sound like they are now trying their hardest to make sure noone agrees with Kyp. A shame. Luceno and Salvatore wrote Kyp so well (Less said about Stackpoles, the better)
  4. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Reaperfett...
    "not read it, but does sound like they are now trying their hardest to make sure noone agrees with Kyp."

    This ties into a key point of JMA's...

    "...I was starting to think that Kyp was showing sense when I thought it was a superweapon..."

    Again, an unfortunate turn of events for Kyp's character. Imagine how much deeper we could explore the Kyp/Luke rift had this actually been the case - that Kyp WAS right. At the time they fled the base near Sernpidal, just after he gave Jaina the speech about needing Rogue Squadron - he could've been the "Most Improved" character in the entire EU history.

    Unfortunately, it seems that Kyp will indeed be a villain, and it is obvious he will be the villain. IMO, it could be so much better if he could be a morally-right antagonist instead of a morally bankrupt villain.
  5. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    How many civillians died on each death star?
  6. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Hundreds of thousands of personnel died on the Death Stars and I'm sure all of them were not there willingly. Luke is responsible for the destruction of the first one, and he is greeted by cheers. Kyp kills 1200 Vong and destroys one of their ships, and he is despised by the morally righteous Skywalker/Solo clan.
  7. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    What bothers me is that Kyp LIED!!
  8. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    whats worse, it almost tells you what will happen at the end now. How it was, you didnt know who was right. Kyp or Luke could have been right. Maybe both were wrong, and theyd find a middle ground. But no. Instead, we have to have it shoved in our face early that Luke is right, Kyp is wrong. Half the NJO intrest (is it N for the Jedi, or the way of the Jedi?) for me has gone now
  9. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    <<<How many civillians died on each death star?>>>

    Anyone seen Clerks? There's a great 3 minute discussion on this. Very funy.
  10. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Yes, good stuff Bogga. They were contractors, they knew the risks when they took the job. :D
  11. jedi-jeff Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 3
    Though Kyp has disgraced himself by lying, I am not entirely convinced that the so called defenseless worldship that was destroyed was not ultimately some sort of weapon, though obviously not a gravity weapon.

    Two comments in the book suggest that some kind of weapon was being built at the shipwomb:

    On page 4 Qurang Lah says the best strategy is for the Yuuzhan Vong to hold their current positions until the shipwomb finishes something that will lead to the defeat of their enemies.

    At the very end of the book, page 288, during the conversation between Nen Yim and Shimrra, he tells her that the shipwomb and the "worldship" that was under construction have been destroyed. However, Shimrra clearly views the remaining inhabitants of the broken-down worldships with contempt; If he is indifferent to the fate of the worldships, then why spend all of the effort to build a new worldship to save inhabitants that he views as worhtless? The resources of the shipwomb would obviously be better used to support the war effort.

    Also I think Nom Amor is finished because his actions have resulted not only in the loss of the shipwomb, but especially because of the loss of the weapon being built there.
  12. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    I thought kyp was written reasonably well. Or maybe I'm just glad to see him get some decent page time. His "new jedi order" speech was awesome. Wedge has used deception and gavin wanted to attack anyways, they'll get over it. I still think jaina will apprentice to kyp in dark journies. It may take jacen dying in star by star for that to happen though. Remember luke's vision, he doesn't end the fight, neither does kyp, it has to be an apprentice of them. And I'm thinking someone who's at least partial to kyp.
  13. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    How many times! JOURNIES is bad grammer! It's either Dark JOURNEY or Dark JOURNEYS. And after Jaina slapped Kyp and yelled at him, I doubt she'll have anything to do with him.
  14. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "So there were civilians killed--big deal."

    Um, for a Jedi Knight, this IS a big deal. Were it just Rogue Squadron, acting alone, and hitting it purely as a military target, I would agree with them. Civilians are going to be casualties in a war of this type. You're right Wettengel, it IS a war of survival. But the Jedi are not supposed to take part in that aspect of it. The slaughtering of civilians to, as Kyp put it, "Send a message" is so blatantly of the Dark Side that it's unbelievable. The difference between a normal person, and a Force-sensitive of the level of Kyp Durron, is that a normal being doesn't have the potential for destruction that a Dark Sider of Kyp's strength would. It's just not the Jedi way. Kyp can truss it up all he wants, but the fact remains that he A) Lied to Jaina B) Got several members of Rogue Squadron and his own dozen killed for a mission they didn't even know they were flying for, and C) killed civilians, while most certainly using the Force to aid him. If this isn't the path to the Dark Side...well, I'll be interested to see how the writers can manage to redeem him then.

    JMA
  15. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    JMA...
    "A) Lied to Jaina B) Got several members of Rogue Squadron and his own dozen killed for a mission they didn't even know they were flying for, and C) killed civilians, while most certainly using the Force to aid him."

    I have to chime in. Note, Jedi must only concern themselves with the greater light/darkness not specifics. I have no problem with Kyp lying to Jaina - Jedi lie all the time. There is nothing wrong with it, if it is for the greater good, even for a Jedi.

    I also have no problem with the deaths of several members of Rogue Squadron and Kyp's Dirty Dozen - that's the nature of war. Often, there will be missions that the individuals carrying them out don't know the ultimate reason for it. However, there must exist a leader to give such commands who has the moral authority to send them on missions they can blindly trust. Without that moral authority, even in warfare, everything will break down. Note, even lying to them about a mission is acceptable if the leader giving the orders has the authority of the greater good on his side - see above.

    Now, I also don't have ANY problems with Kyp killing Vong civillians. There do not exist ANY Vong civillians within the GFFA. Until such time there is peace, every Vong who has invaded the galaxy is an invader which needs to be defended against. That goes for all Vong men, women and children. If they do not wish to invade the galaxy, the responsibility falls on them to change the course of their people - whether through rebellion, open civil war or other means. However, any Vong standing on the GFFA's side of the galactic boundary is an open target.

    So, then if all of this is okay, what exactly is my problem. My problem is that this was the perfect opportunity to make Kyp more than the unsympathetic character he's always been. Here was the chance for Kyp to shine - by taking out the Vong's equivalent of the Death Star. It would certainly still be acceptable to keep him the NJO "bad guy" - as a thorn in Luke's side, but he would be a bad guy who's right. I see it as a missed opportunity to establish Kyp as one of the greatest EU characters created. My problem is how the whole issue played out behind the scene rather than anything his character ended up doing. It's about time Kyp got his break, and this would've been the perfect opportunity to give it to him. It would establish his speeches to Jaina as all-time EU great speeches. Now, they sound rather hollow to me.
  16. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    I'm agreeing with GAW here, that the war with the Empire and Vong is like the western and eastern fronts of WWII. On the latter, hell resulted from total, unrestrained warfare. You say it's wrong to mass bombard, rape and kill civilians? Yep, but the Russians repaid the Nazis in kind for what happened in the course of Operation Barbarossa. WE can say they were wrong, from our plush houses 50+ years later, how easy it is for us.

    So civilians died, how do we know? Do the Vong have a civilian caste? Their entire population seems geared for war: priests, politicians, warriors, scientists. All needed for war, all legitimate targets.

    So Kyp lied, outraging little Miss Righteous Jaina Solo, who also thinks it OK to be dismissive of her father, take pride in killing Vong, be angry and macho towards her brother. Gimme a break, Jaina has never cared about killing vong, why should she do so now?

    Thus far Kyp has acted in a way that is felt by some to not be coherent with the ideals of the Jedi; that is, cold and arrogant. Nowhere has he acted using the dark side of the force, he may have been a jerk: crying more over the loss of his droid at Helska, grandstanding by flying off to fight with fanfare music; but that doesn't put him on the dark side, nor does his disgreement with and dismissal of Luke as a leader.

    The first rule of being a Jedi is to use the Force correctly, Kyp seems to be doing this. The rest of the ideals, of respecting life and treating people well follow on as secondary considerations, but are still in important.

    The point of NJO it seems, in regard to the Jedi, is to show there are other forms of evil besides that of the Dark Side and that to fall prey to these is as bad as falling to the Dark Side: Kyp is not in danger of the Dark Side but the other, more subtle evils of pride, ambition and idealism. The Jedi in NJO seem to rely on the Force to guide their view of good and evil, they arrogantly forget to develope skills of reflection, contemplation and ability at moral philosophy and practical reasoning. The skills that are needed to get them out of the moral hole they find themselves in, while those who've followed Kyp's escape route are heading for a different kind of pit, out of the frying pan into the fire as it were.

    Jedi Ben
  17. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "Gimme a break, Jaina has never cared about killing vong, why should she do so now? "

    For the simple reason that the Vong she killed were all actively trying to kill her, or people she was trying to protect. These are Vong civilians, whom had personally done nothing to Jaina, nor most probably to anyone in the GFFA. They were not casualties of the war itself, they were murdered by a Force wielder.

    Ghengis,

    (Wish I knew how to look back at the other posts while typing this response)

    While I do understand your point of view, I think we disagree on some very fundamental issues here.

    1) I do not believe Kyp Durron HAD the moral authority that you were speaking of. He, in all actuality, had agreed that he was NOT the leader, and that all of his fighters, and himself, were under the command of Admiral Kre'fey and Wedge, I believe. In order for Admiral Kre'fey to make the right decision, as the leader of the operation, he had to have all the evidence and all the info. Kyp certainly did not give this to him. If anyone had the moral authority, it was Kre'fey, not Kyp.

    2) Lying to Jaina isn't in and of itself of the Dark Side, I was just wanting to provide evidence that Kyp is, was, and always will be the single most untrustworthy character in the GFFA, with the exception of Borsk Fey'lya. Kyp has always been one of my favorite characters to read, but that's only because I despise him so much. I haven't been able to stand him ever since he made his first appearance in the Jedi Academy Trilogy (I believe that was his first), and that makes him great to read about, because I don't really care about all that many of the characters that way.

    3) I don't hold with your claim that all of the Vong are invaders and should be killed, merely for existing inside the GFFA. Obviously, Luke and his faction don't either, while you seem to side with Kyp's group on this one. (Although now that I think about it, I'm not sure Kyp has a faction anymore..it just seems to be HIM) I can't really explain why I feel that way, other than to say again that the Jedi are defenders first and foremost, and the cold blooded murder of Vong innocents doesn't constitute defense in any way. Again, you could argue the "Proactive defense" case, but I just don't agree with it. I've always thought that in order to be defending, the Jedi must REACT instead of ACT. ::shrug:: Personal preference I guess. I see what Kyp did as murder, not defense. I'm not sure there's any other way to explain that...

    JMA
  18. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    But where's the evidence for a Vong civilian caste JMA?

    I don't recall seeing any.

    Even if there is such a caste, they do not escape being targets by the fact of the Vong's own actions opening them to the reprisal of civilian death for civilian death.

    That's something the USA doesn't understand, having never been bombed by an aggressor. (The Oklahoma bomb is the nearest incident to any kind of actual attack) Responding in kind to such an attack may not be right, but it sure is necessary or you only encourage your enemy to be bolder. It is for this reason and others that war is considered an evil. SW has yet to recognise this, for it is a story devoted to the narrative of wars, but is also entetainment.

    As for Jaina, she's in a war, those Vong who died would have attacked her and the NR, in war a pre-emptive, sneak attack on an enemy target that is known to pose a threat or will do in the near future, is quite acceptable and justifiable. Jaina seems to think she can have the achievements and glory of war without being tanted by those selfsame achievements. Past time for her illusions to be ended.

    Jedi Ben
  19. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "Responding in kind to such an attack may not be right, but it sure is necessary or you only encourage your enemy to be bolder."

    You're right about that, and in my first response I think, I agreed with that. If a non Force-sensitive would have led the strike, more power to em. I would have gladly said "That was tactically sound". But the fact remains that Kyp Durron is not merely human. He's ENORMOUSLY strong in the Force, and aggressive action on his part could lead to an even greater world of pain than the Vong are now presenting. While Admiral Kre'fey, Wedge, or Gavin are capable of destroying entire worlds with the right weapons at hand, Kyp has the ability to do that within himself, making his choices infinitely more important.

    Also, I'm not seeing where Jaina has become this pride swelled glory monger that you seem to portray. In all the books, the only impression I get from her is that of fatigue. She's tired of war, tired of killing, tired of watching her family and friends be torn apart. I don't think she cares one iota for glory, because she comes from arguably the most famous family in history. I don't think she had any illusions about war left, and if she did, it certainly wasn't up to Kyp Durron to take it into his own hands to shatter them.

    JMA
  20. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Agreed. Jaina was simply angry because Kyp was untrustworthy, he lied, and he used her.
  21. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    I don't believe you guys are rationalizing what he did!

    He attacked a civilian target. He convinced others to attack the target under deceitful pretenses. He tried to convince Jaina of his point of view.

    Palpatine attacked a civilian target (Alderaan). He convinced others to attack the target...Tarkin the crew of the death star (Don't think for a minute it was all Tarkin's idea.). He tried to convince Anikan Skywalker of his point of view.

    Kyp has crossed the line pure and simple. As far as I'm concerned he should be called Darth Durron.

  22. Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 1999
    star 6
    "(Wish I knew how to look back at the other posts while typing this response)"

    After hitting post reply, look what it says above the text window:

    "Body:
    For your convenience, you can review the topic you're replying to in its own browser window by clicking here.
    "

    And while you are in the thread, you can always right click on post reply and select open in a new window.


    Now, on subject.

    Kyp... he has always been an intresting character. I'm happy to see he still is. I really liked him in Rebirth, until I found out what he did that is. But I still have hope for him. I would really like to see Jania become his aprentice. That would be intresting.





  23. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Given how the prevalent portrayal of Jaina Solo is, it'll probably take me to Dark Journey to like her. Why?

    Consider:

    BP put us in Jacen's head. C did the same for Anakin. Both developed the characters and transformed them from the brats they were in the books before. Dark Journey will do the same for Jaina, as well as put her through the wringer in the way her brothers have been. SW does tend to be very equal opportunities on the torture / angst side, everyone goes through hell at some pont, especially if they're a Jedi! :) SBS will not be the one, way too much will be happening in that book I suspect.

    As for where I draw my view of Jaina as taking pride in how she's acted in the war, BP is the main source. Note that it's a more reserved pride than Kyp's revelling in the fighting but still dangerous pride. As for why she should seek to be so, consider her comments in DT, she wishes to be out of her parents shadow, that's a fairly compelling motivation which poses its own hazards to her.

    As to why I'm so harsh on Jaina and her brothers, the answer is they should all be better than they are. I find it a ludicrous error of the story to suppose Han and Leia raised these three screwed up kids, yes, they would hit problems in adolescence but I dispute that they would be the ones that have cropped up in NJO. Now all 3 are steadily getting there but I don't see why they had to have these huge flaws of ego in the first place. Again: Jaina is still shown in a way, which for me, eclipses her considerable good traits with her few flaws, it should be the reverse. It used to be the same for Anakin and Jacen too.

    Jedi Ben
  24. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Sorry, JMA. Kyp has a long wat to go before he even comes close to Obi-Wan Kenobi in the lying department.

    Kyp said all Vong technology is a weapon; he is correct. Worldships would be outfitted with coralskippers and plasma cannons and troops. Sure they may be used to save comrades from dying ships, but how long would it be before that crew brought their new ship up to a war footing? A couple days? A week?

    I also agree that Kyp had some terrific lines and it was very nice to see his character finally getting some necessary development.

    As far as we know, there are no Vong civilians. There is no civilian caste. I believe we learned in AoC that this invasion force is in fact the entire Vong civilization. A civilization geared for a war of conquest. Clearly, they all must be wiped out and if Luke is unwilling to face this fact, he must step aside or be eliminated.

    A) Lied to Jaina B) Got several members of Rogue Squadron and his own dozen killed for a mission they didn't even know they were flying for, and C) killed civilians, while most certainly using the Force to aid him. If this isn't the path to the Dark Side...well, I'll be interested to see how the writers can manage to redeem him then.


    A) Kyp told a tiny lie compared to wait Obi-Wan told Luke, yet Obi-Wan is hailed as a hero and a luminary while Kyp is derided?

    B) They knew the dangers when they volunteered for this operation. Kyp didn't put a blaster up to anyone's head and force them to participate in the operation, nor did Wedge, Gavin or Kre'fey.

    C) The Vong do not appear to have any civilians. The current glimpses of their society and culture suggest the exact opposite--that they are a society geared-up for a war of annhialation.

    Kyp doesn't need any redemption. He's out there fighting the good fight, but let us hope Luke can start to be redeemed soon--especially since his head must really stink after being shoved up somewhere since Ruin.

    And I've always sympathized with Kyp.

    And if Kyp is a dark-sider, why didn't he Force-choke Jaina after she smacked him?

    And as far as the ideals of the Jedi go, look at who Luke had to relate these ideals to him: a liar and a little troll-like alien who was responsible for the destruction of the Jedi for leaving it to Kenobi to train Anakin. If only Luke could have had better roll models than these two colossal bunglers.

    Now if only Kyp would head out to Bastion and team up with Pellaeon. What a terrific team that'd be. :)
  25. val solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 4
    GAW, I applaud you! :) I, too, like Kyp more now than ever, despite his manipulation. And I can't say that I feel a bit sorry for the worldship's inhabitants. THIS IS A WAR, for gosh sakes!

    Up until now, Kyp was just acting way too arrogant to be at all likeable. But now I can see his intentions a bit more clearly and I have to agree with him on many points. The rest of the galaxy has sat on their duffs for too long letting the Vong get such a strong foothold. It's time for action, and I even think Luke is finally coming to that realization.

    Kyp just seems more mature now. Maybe that's contradictory to you who seem to hate him, but everyone has their own opinion here. He didn't force anyone to do anything. He just showed them the truth.... 'from a certain point of view.' And even after Jaina slaps him and chews him out in front of everyone else, we can see that most everyone else around agreed with him. Heck, they cheered for him! Only Jaina, Wedge and Gavin are standing there silently.

    I think he regrets having to use Jaina, but realized it was necessary to have certain cooperation from Rogue Squadron. Even he tells Jaina that he doesn't 'like' what he's become. I think he'll try to redeem himself in her eyes further on down the line because I think he's got a soft spot for her. Whether that develops into anything more remains to be seen, but the way they sparred verbally reminded me of Han and Leia back in the good old days!

    I want to see him as a good guy... maybe more an anti-hero type like Han than an always right Luke. He's got a lot of potential, and after this book, I'm very anxious to see where he goes.

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