The development of Kyp Durron (Rebirth Spoilers)

In my opinion, I wouldn't compare Kyps lead against the worldships with the deathstar attacks. It is more comparable with his attack on Carida. Both were done for revenge, both had the ability to house and create troops and military weaponry. Both are also worlds within which Vong Civilians live and go about their lives.

And as such is more along the lines of a dark side action. What is so different about these two attacks?

 

When Kyp explained to Jaina, the difference between Luke, the OLD rep jedi, and the new generation, i think the truth was distilled.
this is the NEW JEDI ORDER. Kyp's order, not so much luke's. what he did, what he on many an occasion has done, is heroic. brave, self-sacrificing, and by the end of the war, if you look back and subtract his contributions, you would probably see the end of the GFFA, overrun by Vong.
his methods are not lukes, but that does not mean they are not jedi. his methods are differing tangent of the code. This entire series is based on broadening the understanding of the old jedi and the force (eg. Anakin and Jacen's philosphies)
Kyp was made to look like a villian because he killed civilians. and more to the point, because he lied to and betrayed Jaina. IN my mind he simply circumvented Jaina's ethics which have been adversely affected by Luke's limp wrist crap. Luke is beginning to see the truth of Kyps ways, and his strength and bravery will show through.
He does have a problem with vengeance and anger, but is controlling it. if luke tried to nudge him back onto course instead of trying to stop him altogether, the Jedi would really start sweeping some Vong butt back into Shimmra's hellhole of a galaxy.

just my thoughts.

 

Genghis12: I agree the world ship and the ship womb were valid targets. The world ship was not occupied by "civilians" and the destruction of the ship womb would be no different than attacking a ship yard.

But Kyp should have been truthful about what he found. That way everyone involved could have weighed the consequences. Even though no one lived on the world ship, its destruction takes away valued living space for the Vong. Wedge, Kre'fey, Gavin, and Jaina needed to be able to consider the backlash and plan better. I believe they would have still attacked, but would have known more what they were doing. They deserved to know the truth. Kyp gave them all too little credit.

If he had been truthfull, and the mission were still a success, just think of the respect he would have gained. Now the Jedi remain fragmented, Rogue Squadron is a little fragmented (many of them were cheering Kyp at the end of the book), and the "higher ups" have less respect for Kyp than ever.

And what if they had chosen not to attack? Well, they could have continued observing the area and developed a new strategy. Kyp should have remembered the people with whom he was dealing, the Rouges and Kre'fey, were not ones to sit down and do nothing. They would have embraced the information Kyp provided and done something with it.

 

Another consequence of Kyp's lies and half truths is that he has lost all credibilty among those whom could make the best use of the information that he gathers on the Vong.

One of the points made about Kyp and his dozen is that they are not a significant military threat to the Vong, but they are very effective at gathering intelligence. Thus, his unnecessary deceit will result in any future information that he gathers on the Vong being viewed with skepticism or simply ignored.

His image among his critics, such as Wedge, and the credibilty of the information that he would have provided in the future would have been greatly enhanced if he had simply told the truth and revealed all relevant information concerning the "worldship" under construction. The irony is that the "great river" is apparently, in part, a large scale intelligence gathering operation in which Kyp and his dozen could have played an important role. I suspect that Luke wanted to meet with Kyp to tell him that using his talents for gathering intelligence on the Vong was a good idea. One thing that has become obvious is that the NR and the Jedi still have very little information on the Vong in order to effectively counter the Vong invasion.

Kyp needs to admit that his judgement was very flawed. Or as Homer Simpson would say when he screws up, Kyp should say classic Homer phrase: "Doh".

 

I agree, jedi-jeff. Kyp has lost the opportunity to gain credibility. His actions just made things worse.

 

I just want to throw this in, but most of the people that participated in the battle at Sernpidal were perfectly fine with what happened. Only Jaina, Gavin and Wedge felt betrayed. ALl the others, including Kyp's Dozen and most of Rogue Squadron, felt that they had made a huge victory and weren't upset at all about what they had just done.

 

Finally, there are other people who realize that what Kyp is doing isn't wrong. It's necessary. And that other major characters like Luke, Wedge, Leia, Corran, etc. have done the same things and got praised for it. The writers wrote what they did as heroic deeds and ignored all the bad stuff, while with Kyp they are writing up all the bad stuff like civilians died when he fought an enemy warship and they are not writing down the good stuff he is accomplishing. He's doing the same stuff. The people in the GFFA are just having the complete;y opposite reaction to it for some reason. And what's really surprising and ironic is that itis those people who did the same things and got praised for it are the ones who are having those reactions, while most normal people like what Kyp is doing. I probably won't be posting too much in here or other Kyp threads cause I'm sure everybody who's been payin attention knows my opinions and you're probably gettin tired of hearin them. I'm also getting tired of typing them.

 

Ofcourse those that cheered Cheered even when hearing that they hadn't destroyed a superweapon. It's natural given that they are in a war and the Vong have not given the slightest qualm about destroying nomillitary targets that they would rejoice in a little tip for tap action. But what they don't see because they are too stuck in the moment, they are too happy because they lived for one more day after a hotrrible battle, is that their action against the Vong worldship has brought them down to the Vong's level.

Now before you guys start saying "Well it was war...", or "They had to fight with fire..." (incidentally I've never figured out the logic to that expression. Doesn't fighting fire with fire just adds more flames stregnthening the blaze and acceraliting its spreading.). Yes the GFFA the NR the Jedi might win the war by fighting with the same values and morals as the vong fight with, but will it be a better place afterward.

After the war, and the terror the Vong have inflicted fade from the poeples of the GFFA, history (the people he would save in this war) will look back on Kyp Durron and categorize him with Palpatine, Darth Vader, Yssanne Issarde, and Grand Moff Tarkin. Rather than the heroes of the rebellion or the mythic Jedi knights of the Old Republic he'd liked to remembered with. And that is why I will see him forever with pity or disdain.

 

The people who fight with no morals win because they'll do anything to win. The people who fight wars with really high morals usually lose. Union won Civil War cause used total war, tore up railroads and the such. They were gettin their ass kicked before they started that. If the NR tries to fight while looking down at the Vong and vowing not to be like that they will lose.

 

I thank the force every day that some of you are not jedi.

What is scary about Kyp is that he uses legitimate arguments about the morality of being a jedi to further his dark ambitions. Of course it is wrong to sit idly by and let evil happen. But there is definetly a point where the response is not in line with the nature of the jedi code.

I happen to agree that attacking the worldship was not a dark act in and of itself. There were no civilians on the ship yet. Any military action in a war can have drastic consequences for the civilian populations even indirectly. A system is lost and a vital shipping lane is cut off, thus making it harder for food to reach a planet, which causes famine. You can logic yourself into a corner with thoughts such as those.

The problem is, Kyp deliberately falsified information to several people to get help with his mission. That is not in line with the code. We are not talking about a "point of view" deception here. He presented his information in such a way as to make it seem like that worldship was something it wasnt. It can certainly be argued that every vong ship is a weapon. But it is actually irrelevant in this case because he presented it as a weapon that it was NOT.

He has admitted to being adicted to power and has shown that he has no moral limits to what he will do for "what is right." That is dangerous. It could be argued that he sexually manipulated Jaina into listenint to him, although she is certainly just as responsible there. It is important to rememmber that not every road to the dark side has to be traveled with pure agression and evil. And in life, and especially as a jedi, the ends do NOT justify the means ever. That is by its very nature a dark side statement.

For those of you that are tired of this division in the jedi ranks, consider that it exists because of the division in our ranks as to how the force should be used. And i will agree with an earlier statement. It is sad indeed that Luke, and all of us, had such poor guidance in learning the force.

 

In my reading of the book Rebirth and the many fine responses presented here I've come to a similar inference as was last posted.
Of course, it is an opinion that is open to debate; however, I feel that it best represents my thoughts on this particularly shaky subject.

Kyp has done a correct action in his decisive attack against the World Ship and it was a considerable victory for those in the government of the New Republic.
It was a victory and military attack that could be likened with Luke Skywalker's attack on many Star Destroyers as well as the numerous fights executed and accomplished by those in Rogue Squadron.
Yet the ends do not always justify the means, and this is such a case.
He used petty manipulation in his actions and directed Wedge Antilies, Gavin Darklighter, Jaina Solo and Admiral Kre?fey into a battle to which they had been duped into believing would determine the final course of the war.
He masqueraded a World Ship as a deadly superweapon that had destructive capability of any superweapon ever developed or used by the Empire, even above the Death Star itself.
It was a lie that was conceived for those who itched for a way to submit action against the Vong and was a strong temptation for those who needed to offer support for military results against the invaders, it was a golden promise.
As we?ve seen, others in the influence of the Dark Side have offered temptations that specialize in the realization of personal wishes, such as Vader did to Luke and as Palpatine did for the people of the Old Republic.
Perhaps it will eventually lead to a final victory over the Vong (I doubt it) but that does not mean that Kyp has redeemed himself nor does it mean that he has accomplished an action that is worthy of his mastery of the Force.

Instead he used military action and visuals of chaotic scale to dupe Wedge and his fellow pilots into fighting against this target.
On a much more personal scale he used petty sexual manipulation and gender intimidation to bring Jaina into launching his proposal.
He knew that he had little to no credibility with those in the New Republic, thus he used the respect of another to finalize the ends of his desire.
He sacrificed his moral and personal objections to his hate for the Vong and for revenge against the death of Wurth Skidder and other Jedi along with the destruction of several planets.

It was a noble act that was brought about through incorrect means, the manipulation of others.

 

1st - Afetr Kyp's "New Jedi Order" speech, he has returned to one of my top ten fav characters. That is exactly what I have been talking about since VP. These aren't the Jedi of old. Why not? Look at what happened to the Old Jedi Order - all dead!!

Also, Qui-Gon Jinn always defied the Jedi Council, but his actions brought about a Balance to the Force.

2nd - "Fighting fire with fire" makes perfect sense. That's how they stopped all the oil fires in Kuwait. The fires were so hot and big that water couldn't put them out. So the firefighters sent over from North America used explosives to put the fires out. How? By detonating a large explosion inside the fire, the explosion uses up all the oxygen and the fire dies.

3rd - the thing about kyp's actions that disturbes me the most is that he was flirting with the 18-year-old daughter of one of his best friends!!

 

--"After the war, and the terror the Vong have inflicted fade from the poeples of the GFFA, history (the people he would save in this war) will look back on Kyp Durron and categorize him with Palpatine, Darth Vader, Yssanne Issarde, and Grand Moff Tarkin. Rather than the heroes of the rebellion or the mythic Jedi knights of the Old Republic he'd liked to remembered with. And that is why I will see him forever with pity or disdain."--

I completely disagree. First of all, the general public is desperate for a response to the Vong. Look at all Kyp's followers, they are desperate to attack, thats why they treat him like a god, because he's giving them what they want.

Secondly, the general public doesn't know about the deception, probably never will, and probably wouldn't care. They do not know that personnel like Kre'Fey and Antilles are willing to fight, but have had their hands tied by the government, all they know is that their worlds are being destroyed and their supposed protectors have done nothing. Kyp probably appears to be a savior, rebelling against his oppressors and following the will of the people. Think about our current situation. We never know the details of the decision making process in our own military, why then should the people of the GFFA. They will see the results of Kyp's raid, but will never know the classified, military details.

I'm not arguing wrong or right here, although I do think Kyp was justified in doing what he was doing. I'm saying the general public will see Kyp's actions as heroic. They won't know he deceived a few higher ups, and wouldn't care anyway. And they won't care that he "killed" enemy civilians, not after the Vong have done the same, repeatedly. More than likely, his popularity will soar.

Ok, now I'm gonna argue on Kyp's behalf. No one should care about their legacy at the moment. Because that assumes there will be people around to remember you and care about what you did. Unless they start following Kyp's lead, their will be no one left to care let alone pass judgment.

Frankly, any of Kyp's misdeeds pale in comparison to the Vong's, and Kyp indirectly killing enemy civilians will be forgotten long before a horrific thats has literally destroyed dozens of world and is bent on eradicating the galaxy's current occupants.

I agree with Kyp, actions must be taken. I don't know if he's picked the correct actions, no one does. All we know is that his intentions are good. Yes, I know, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and all that, and I know that the ends do not justify the means in and of the themselves, but I do know that all heroic actions started out as good intentions.

Face

 

Someone else mentioned it, but it was never expanded upon, so I will now:

In Kevin Smith's brilliant movie clerks, the two main characters, Dante and Randle, are arguing about this same thing, in relation to the destruction of the Second Death Star.
While the first one was completed, and populated by probably 99% Imperial soldiers, it was ok that it was destroyed with all hands aboard.
However, the 2nd DS was still under construction.
And since your average Imperial Stormtrooper doesn't know anything about electrical wiring or installing plumbing, there were still many contractors aboard who were hired to build the thing.
When Lando Calrissian destroyed it, all these contractors were killed.
However, as a customer in the Quick Stop pointed out, those contractors knew what they were getting into when they agreed to take on the job, therefore Lando is not at fault for killing innocents.
And since I have yet to see a Vong "civilian", I don't hold Kyp at fault for killing innocents.

Snootch to the Nootch.

 

It's a double standard people have. Back when Luke, Lando, Wedge, Han, whoever wanted to take the fight to the Empire and make attacks it was ok, but Kyp can't do it now.

Kenobi, Luke, and many other Jedi held posts in the Navy. Do you think they never attacked the enemy, never attacked nonmilitary targets such as shipping lanes and killed some non-military people? Of course they did

And I have seen no civilian Vong. Every Vong we have seen has been involved in the ar effort directly, except their slaves and the Shamed Ones who grow war materials.

The only thing Kyp did wrong was lie, but many others we consider heros lied a little or reinterpreted orders, done something their superiors didn't want. As Wedge said, "easier to ask for forgiveness than permission."

I can forgive Kyp for the small lie as he didn't think anybody would listen to him otherwise. What's most disturbing is what seems that he is flirting with Jaina but well it's not like he's violating her and Han had quite a few years on Leia, so we'll see what happens, though I expect nothing.

 

Since when was Kyp going to be in Dark Journey???

 

It's a double standard people have. Back when Luke, Lando, Wedge, Han, whoever wanted to take the fight to the Empire and make attacks it was ok, but Kyp can't do it now.

Kenobi, Luke, and many other Jedi held posts in the Navy. Do you think they never attacked the enemy, never attacked nonmilitary targets such as shipping lanes and killed some non-military people? Of course they did


Kyp fought under a secret veil, which lost him his trust with Jaina and her superiors.
Luke and the others did destroy plenty targets like that in the fight against the Empire, but all of those battles were sanctioned by the Alliance and carried out by Military minds.
They were not done in secrecy or through petty use of other people's positions.
Kyp used manipulation to get something that was done without trickery in the past.

 

<<<Since when was Kyp going to be in Dark Journey???>>>

People are just assuming that he and Jaina will interact more just because they did in Rebirth, but for all we know Kyp will be dead before Dark Journey.

Some of you must realize that Kyp is the only Jedi that is doing anything to stop the war. Kyp's the only one willing to take the fight to the Vong. Luke is doing absolutely nothing to hurt the Vong and defeat them. He's only working to protect his Jedi but that's not doing much good for the rest of the galaxy. Luke is only willing to defend, but waiting for the Vong to strike and then defending will never stop the Vong. The Vong can just wait and grow more ships, something that the NR cannot do. The only group of people that are opposed to Kyp's tactics are other Jedi who seemingly have no idea what war is all about. The rest of the galaxy surely appreciates the fact that Kyp harasses the Vong and attempts to significantly slow them down.

There is one way to win a war and that's to attack. Kyp is doing that. The only reason you guys are against Kyp's tactic is because you hated him prior to the NJO. Now you're against everything he does. I count three people who didn't agree with Kyps tactics in Rebirth; those being Jaina, Gavin and Wedge. Jaina, I believe, feels more hurt by the fact that Kyp used her and manipulated her feelings in order to get her to do what he needed. Wedge has always had a personal grudge against Kyp so I see nothing new here. Gavin is surely more mad that he was used. You just can't say that they are upset that they brought the war to the Vong (at least briefly) and won.

<<<Kyp used manipulation to get something that was done without trickery in the past.>>>

Jaina would have never went for destroying the Worldship had she known as she was too caught up with hating Kyp's methods and only seeing Luke's side of the debate. Without Jaina's help Kyp would never have gotten the help of Rogue Squadron and then Kre'fey. It's very simple. There was no way that Kyp would have gotten to do the galaxy a favor by destroying the Worldship without a little manipulation. Personally, I think some of you are just afraid to see Luke be wrong for once.

 

Im sure I heard he was quite important in it, some rumour or other

 

"Kyp used manipulation to get something that was done without trickery in the past."

Yeah, and it should be able to be done without trickery now, but for some reason not many people seem willing to fight back and make attacks. Mybe Kyp and the rest of the galaxy should just surrender to the Vong. Kyp's attack was highly successful. It took them a year or two to get that worldship to the point it was at and now they wasted all their resources and many of their soldiers will have no place to go. It couldn't have gotten done without trickery and it was necessary.

"The only reason you guys are against Kyp's tactic is because you hated him prior to the NJO."

Exactly. You guys are letting your feelings and your emotions cloud your judgement. Qui-Gon warned Obi-Wan about this.

"Personally, I think some of you are just afraid to see Luke be wrong for once."

Also true and you guys need to get over it. He's not perfect and I don't understand why he's acting the way he is and not fighting back.

 

If we are letting our distane for Kyp cloud our judgement, surely you are letting your distain for the lack of effort by the jedi in the war movement cloud yours.

Skywalker, whos intentions are good at heart, is wrong as well. Allowing evil to occur is just as bad as committing it yourself. I dont claim to think he is right. And it is clear that jacen has been adversely affected by his masters stance on the issue.

The will of the force should clearly indicate the course of action for the jedi. All they have to do is listen. It is wrong to assume that because the vong themselves to not "show up" in the force, that the force cannot provide the jedi guidance in fighting them. I believe that was the purpose of Jacen's vision in Balance Point.

Morality is morality. The jedi are allowing themselves to be blinded by the fact that they cant sense the vong in the force like usual. But they should not need to use the force to know that the slaughtering of innocents is wrong and should be stopped.

Kyp has his heart in the right place, but his actions are of poor character and judgement. He has been along the path of the dark side for a long time, albeit traveling slowly.

I think what we are seeing here is why there was a jedi council in the old republic. Intentionally or not, the authors have created a situation where the body of jedi are acting without guidance. A council would provide this. I find it quite interesting that there is even a debate with Luke about setting one up. But it is quite clear that the jedi need a group of leaders who are united in action and can provide some kind of real leadership for the rest of the jedi. He again, is letting outside issues cloud his judgement of what should be done.

Regadless of the NR's position about a council, the jedi need to establish one. It does not have to be an "official" body to the NR like the council of old. They need something though and based on Luke's reactions at the end of rebirth, i think we might finally get that.

 

"surely you are letting your distain for the lack of effort by the jedi in the war movement cloud yours."

It's not disdain, it's reality. If they don't fight back with more effort they will lose the galaxy. Kyp is showing that effort.

"Kyp has his heart in the right place, but his actions are of poor character and judgement."

You mean, fighting back, that's of poor judgement. What do you suppose they should do?

 

"You mean, fighting back, that's of poor judgement. What do you suppose they should do? "

Jarik, you know that's not what he's referring to. Everyone feels the Jedi need to take a bit more of a stand I think, it's just that those of us who disagree with Kyp, disagree with his methods and motives. It IS of poor judgement for a Jedi to attack with the motives of anger and vengeance. I mean, that goes against what the core of the Jedi Code is. He's not talking about fighting back being a bad thing, at least I don't think so. He's talking about the way Kyp chooses to do it.

JMA

 

He's not attacking out of anger. He's attacking because it has to be done.

 

Not completely true. If you read the end of Rebirth again, his only purpose in destroying the worldship was to send a message to the Vong. His little speech proves that the attack was made for the citizens of Ithor, Duros, and whatever other worlds he named. That's vengeance, and vengeance can't be had without anger first. It's not as if the worldship was in all actuality threatening the safety of the NR, in and of itself. Kyp destroyed it as nothing more than some sort of grand "If you can do it, so can I" message. Not very jedi-like of him.

JMA